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So yom can mean a day, a year, or a lifetime, but you deny the next step that it can mean forever? Your interpretation does not apply at all to the other verses I listed. What about the verses in Jeremiah where yom is interpreted as "Me forever", speaking of God. Is that also not really forever?
And while we are at it, since you are Messianic, and I know that Messianics think they know so much about Judaism; did you know that Orthodox and Hasidic Jews firmly believe in reincarnation? They point to Job where it says a person has to go to hell 2 or 3 time before they get it, which to them dictates a situation that could not be encompassed by a single lifetime.
(I don't agree, but I do feel that I lack a decisive counter argument, so I respect their right to disagree with me.)
The argument for Christianity also rests entirely on an obstinate definition for where salvation lies. Come to think of it, many of the precepts throughout the bible have a similar obstinacy for which a majority of people have no concept of.Because the argument for Creationism rests entirely on choosing a very obstinate definition for an English translation of a word you really have no concept of.
The claim has been made that when yom is used with a number, it always refers to a 24-hour day:
"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with a number 410 times, and each time it means an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1
Let's look at some notable exceptions to this "rule," just using the first day as an example. The number used for "first day" is the Hebrew word echad,12 which means "one." The first exception to the "rule" is found in Genesis 29:20, where echad yom refers to a period of seven years that Jacob served Laban to obtain Rachel.13
In the book of 1 Samuel, David says that he "will perish one day [echad yom] by the hand of Saul."14 Obviously, David was not expecting to die in exactly 24 hours. In fact, David was never killed by Saul, but died of old age many decades later.
A prophecy from the book of Daniel describes the demise of the ruler of the Syrian kingdom, Seleucus Philopator, the Son of Antiochus the Great. According to Daniel 11:20, "within a few days [echad yom] he will be shattered."15 The reign of Seleucus actually lasted 12 years16 - a relatively short period of time, but certainly not 24 hours!
There are several examples where echad yom refers to the Day of the Lord - a period usually interpreted as being seven years in length.17 Specific examples that specify a period of time longer than 24 hours include the following:
'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day [echad yom]. 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'" (Zechariah 3:9-10)
For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:7-8)
"He [the Lord] will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. (Hosea 6:2)
If we are to interpret echad yom as referring only to a 24 hour day, then people will only be able to invite their neighbors over during one 24 hour period of time. Obviously, Zechariah 3:9-10 refers to an extended period of time. Later in his book, Zechariah describes this "one day" as being "in summer as well as in winter." This verse clearly indicates that this "one day" must be at least six months in length. The third example above is somewhat difficult to interpret, but is often interpreted as representing long periods of time. Gill's commentary says,"...these two and three days may be expressive of a long and short time, as interpreters differently explain them; of a long time, as the third day is a long time for a man to lie dead..."18 These six examples clearly establish that when yom is used with a number it does not always refer to 24-hour days.
Hebrew Dictionaries
Lets start with the possible meanings of Yom;
The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press)
"It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)."
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (symbols omitted)
from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger
As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length.
Other Uses of Yom
Day is not the only translation for the word Yom. Here are some other uses.
Time
It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time." For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period.
In Isaiah 30:8, it says "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever." In this case, Yom is equal to "forever." How long is forever? An infinite number of years...billions upon billions upon billons of years. If Yom can equal trillions of years here, then why not billions of years in Genesis?
Year
Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year." In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..." In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old." Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years." In each case, Yom represents years, not days.
Age
Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age." These range from sentences like "stricken in age," meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7). Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime. In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age."
Ago
One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..."
Always
Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7. Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29).
Season
Three times yom is translated "season." In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period.
Chronicles
When used in conjunction with the word dâbâr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times).
Continually
When used in conjunction with kôwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times). Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kôwl).
Ever
Ever is used to represent a long period of time, such as in Deuteronomy 19:9, "to walk ever in his ways." Nineteen times Yom is translated "ever." The old testament uses "for ever" instead of the word forever. In sixteen cases of use of the word ever, for is placed before it, indicating a infinite period of time. I will not list them all (consult Strong's Concordance for a full listing) but here is an example. In Psalm 23:6, it says "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever." Here Yom is translated as the final word of this verse, ever. Thus, Yom in this verse, and 16 others, represents eternity.
Evermore
In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kôwl, Yom is translated "evermore." Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity.
Word Usage in the Old Testament
As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time. Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general. How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words.
Yom in the Creation Account
Even within the creation account, Yom is used to represent four different time periods.
Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate a 12-hour period
Genesis 1:14 "And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate 24-hour days
Genesis 2:4 "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.
The fourth usage of Yom in the creation account is in the summary for each of the six creation days, "and there was morning and evening the first day". Yom is used to represent a finite, long period of time, usually either millions or billions of years. To show support for this, consider the uses of Yom by Moses.
Moses Other Uses of Yom
Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.
Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity
Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways
As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity.
Common Young Earth Arguments
To get around the obvious conclusion that Yom in Genesis 1 can mean millions of years, young earth theorists have come up with several arguments, none of which is supported by common Hebrew grammatical rules according to Hebrew experts (such as Dr. Walter Kaiser). These rules were created by Hebrew language experts who are young earth creationists to begin with, thus their viewpoint is obviously biased. They have a specific agenda they are trying to prove, and thus cannot be objective.
Ordinals/Cardinals
Young earth creationists say that whenever Yom is used with an ordinal or cardinal number (1st, 2nd, 1,2, etc) that it always represents a 24 hour day. However, this is not true. In Zechariah 14:7-9, the "one day" refers to a period of time when the Lord shall be king over the earth. In other places, some say that Isaiah and Hosea have numbers with the word day which are figurative (External Link).
Some young earth theorists, including Jonathan Sarfati in his book Refuting Compromise, have addressed this verse in Zechariah an Hosea. Although his argument sounds impressive, you have to recognize it for what it is...he is arguing for his young earth agenda, thus any rules that he espouses must be examined by true Hebrew scholars who are impartial. Hebrew scholars do not recognize this fabricated rule.1
What Sarfati thinks is not important...what is important, as Dr. Walter Kaiser points out, is the intentions of the author. We should not create rules that support our own agendas, but should strive to understand the author's intended meaning outside of rules.
Evening/Morning Construction
In Genesis 1 Moses says "and there was evening and morning the xx day". Does the use of evening and morning indicate a sunrise and sunset for each creative day? First, let's look at what evening and morning are not. They are not actual evening and mornings, as this requires a sunrise and sunset. According to young earth theory, the Sun was not created until Day Four, thus there could be no sunrise or sunset for the first three days of creation. However, God uses the terms evening and morning for those first three days. Therefore, they cannot be actual evenings and mornings.
We are left with only one option. The words for Evening and Morning can only represent the beginning and ending of the creative period, and not actual sunrise and sunsets. Scripture itself sets this pattern for us. Morning and evening are used figuratively in Psalm 30:5, Psalm 49:14,15, Psalm 90:6. Thus, the evening and morning of creation can mean the start and end of the creative process that is attributed to that creation period.
Young earth advocates counter that traditionally, church fathers have always held that sunrise and sunsets do not constitute a day, and they accepted the sun creation on Day Four with no hint of the first three days being anything other than 24-hour days. For instance, Sarfati in Refuting Compromise mentions Luther and Calvin (page 84-86). However, Luther and Calvin did not have the means of modern science at their disposal. At the time, geocentricity was still accepted! Don't fall into the trap of following the teachings of our church fathers. For more, read Church Fathers.
Literal/Figurative Argument
This argument says that you cannot use a word figuratively until after you have used it literally (see this Answers in Genesis article). The author gives two examples, which appear to be correct and follow this rule. However, is this rule valid? I see no reason to suppose that it is. You have to be careful with young earth claims about biblical interpretation methods. Again, they will invent rules that support their cause, when there is no basis for their rule in Hebrew.
In this case, it makes no difference which order the word Yom appears in, i.e. literal before figurative or vice versa. Yes, these are the first words of the Bible, but they are not the first words of mankind. All the time from Adam to Moses, men were speaking in their own languages, thus the literal interpretation via spoken language would already have been established. There was no need to suppose a literal/figurative structure.
If God's Creation Was Billions of Years Old...
If God's creation was billions of years old, how would He have written the creation account in Genesis? One thing is certain...God is good at telling us exactly what we need to know.
When God refers to a large number, He uses picture stories, such as Abraham's descendants being as numerous as the sand. Why does He do this? If God had said, "You will have millions of descendants," Abraham would have asked, "What is a million?"
When considering the creation, if we broke it down into days, that would be 5,000,500,000,000 days, or roughly 13.7 billion years. Do we need an account for each day of creation...of course not. God in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to tell us the creation story by breaking it down into creative segments, each of which was attributed to a specific creative act or acts. We need to give the early Hebrews of Genesis a break...they didn't have calculators like we do!
One must also consider that time with God has no meaning. To Him, 10 billion years is like a day. Thus, it is no problem for God to put billions of years into one of His days. Dr. Hugh Ross puts it best in his determination that the frame of reference for creation is the surface of the earth. Genesis 1:2 puts the witness of creation on the surface. But who is witnessing these events? It is God himself. During the first 5.99 days of creation, God is the only one present. Thus, human time does not matter...no humans were there to witness the passage of time. What matters is how God sees time! Thus, a billion year day is only a passing moment in God's eyes.
The creation account is written in such a manner for all people to understand it. The issue is not how long creation took...the issue is that God did it, and that's all that matters in the end.
Conclusion
With such a wide usage of the word Yom for many different time periods, it cannot be claimed that Yom in the Old Testament only represents a 24-hour period. During the creation account alone, Yom represents four different time periods. Rules of Hebrew, created by young earth Hebrew scholars, are invalid. Because of their biased position, they are trying to prove their own agenda.
Since humans did not witness creation, our own concept of a 24-hour day does not apply. The only thing that matters is God's concept of time. Thus, the only evidence we have to accurately assess the age of creation is the creation itself. Since the rocks and stars say we are billions of years old, that must be the truth. This fits perfectly with a literal interpretation of Genesis, and an inerrant Bible, and does not impact any other Biblical doctrines.
Because liberals are all about having a heart, while the politics of conservativism is all about selfishness, purely self-interest and not caring about others. Conservatives call liberals "bleeding hearts", demonstrating their own lack of heart. And on the rare occasions when conservatives talk about love they do so in a totally unconvincing fashion, like Bush's farcical "compassionate conservatism" which evaporating into nothing.As for how you relate any of this to conservatism is beyond me.
When does the English word day ever refer to a year or a lifetime, much less forever?Regarding the OP, yom means day and can be used any way the english word day can be used. There is no special nuance in the hebrew that's not present in the english.
Could you be more specific, what is in the context of the verses in the OP that accounts for yom being translated to the words always or for ever? All you gave above was your usual vague generalization without a single specific example.It's meaning is a regular 24 hour day just like the english word. But like all other words, it can mean a whole ranges of things, if context permits. But when there's nothing in the context to direct it meanings, it merely means evening morning day.
In Deuteronomy 5:29, 11:1, 14:23 and many more places in that book, as well as in Jeremiah 31:36, 32:39, 33:18 & 35:19 & 1 Samuel 2:32-35, yom explicitly means "always".
Yes, I am familiar with Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah as well as Sukkot, Hanukkah, Purim and Passover. I'm wondering what made you convert? I noticed that the Jews in Jews for Jesus are extremely conservative compared to even the most conservative Hasidic Jew. I imagine that is the case with you as well?Oye Vey!
While I was still living as a Jew? We held each year a very solemn high holy day. Day of atonement. "Yom Kippur." Believe me when I tell you this.. It was for only one day of the year.
Do you think you could summarize? My challenge was not nearly so open ended as your offer. I just gave a nine verses and asked how Yom could be translated as always and forever in those verses.The way you are going about this, I believe, is by looking up the meaning of the root word in some reference book, but are failing to know what the modifying syntax is that is to be found in the Hebrew passage. One single root meaning in Hebrew can be greatly altered by what's to be found in the Hebrew syntax, which modifies its meaning.
If you are interested in seeing this principle being taught from the Scriptures, PM me.
Yes, I am familiar with Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah as well as Sukkot, Hanukkah, Purim and Passover. I'm wondering what made you convert?
Funny you should mention that. Ever notice the born again Jews in the OT, who loved God's Word, were all conservative? The combination of knowledge of Scripture and regeneration that is functional will always end up being conservative. Its apostates and unbelievers that are liberals. You will never find a regenerated soul that loves God's Word being a liberal. Liberals try to use (manipulate) God's Word to their advantage. Moses was a conservative... So was David. Name any Prophet of God? Conservative. Its one of the reasons the prophets were hated and persecuted by apostate generations.I noticed that the Jews in Jews for Jesus are extremely conservative compared to even the most conservative Hasidic Jew. I imagine that is the case with you as well?
It only seems complicated because you have not been taught what you need to know.Do you think you could summarize? My challenge was not nearly so open ended as your offer. I just gave a nine verses and asked how Yom could be translated as always and forever in those verses.
I don't see why this has to get so complicated, don't any of you have a simple straightforward answer?
What a shocker, how did I guess you were a radical right winger? Being raised as a Methodist I loath fanatical extremes of either kind. Jesus was profoundly liberal at times, telling the rich man to give all his wealth to the poor was hardly a conservative statement. And Jesus' focus on love is a standard liberal by-line. Conservatives are good at some things, but love and compassion are not among them, thus "compassionate conservatism" proved to be a total farce and so it was nothing but a flash in the pan. Conservative politics have, for at least 2000 years since the bloody opposition of the conservative Optimates against liberal champion Julius Caesar, been about the promotion of selfishness and appeals to the backwards rural population. Liberals have always been about compassion for the poor, promotion of the general welfare and appeals to the more educated and socially adept urban centers. And just as in Caesar's time the conservatives today are willing to sabotage the entire country as a threat to get their way. Conservatives are, at the worst, are capable of the most ugly kind of destructive behavior in the history of politics, quite consistently over the millennia.Funny you should mention that. Ever notice the born again Jews in the OT, who loved God's Word, were all conservative? The combination of knowledge of Scripture and regeneration that is functional will always end up being conservative. Its apostates and unbelievers that are liberals. You will never find a regenerated soul that loves God's Word being a liberal. Liberals try to use (manipulate) God's Word to their advantage. Moses was a conservative... So was David. Name any Prophet of God? Conservative. Its one of the reasons the prophets were hated and persecuted by apostate generations.
OK, here we go again, you clearly aren't listening, just like in our PM's. YOU are the one trying to make this complicated. I do not think my challenge is the least bit complicated, but you point me to some far-out nondenominational who apparently couldn't make it in a real denomination and want me to read reams of his work rather than answer a SIMPLE QUESTION.It only seems complicated because you have not been taught what you need to know.
So once again, what are the modifiers of yom in the 9 verses I listed? (And really it is repeats of just 2 kinds of usage.) Can you answer this straight forward question?What I told you is not complicated. Actually, I kept it on a very basic level. Word meanings that you find in concordances and dictionaries do not give the details of how the root word was modified in the Hebrew to give it the meaning you see. It generally shows only the root word. In English we do not have such modifiers. We will use other words to modify meanings. For example... someone in Greek could tell someone to run, and end up with several different meanings. We only see someone being told to run. But, he could have been told to run without stopping till he could not run anymore.. Or, to simply get out of the way. Alexander the Great invented modifiers for the Greek that allowed him to give commands with sometimes a single word. Words that were to be understood as to their exact meaning and intent. That Greek (Koine) ended up being used for much of the NT and Septuagint OT translation.
For instance, Spanish has the word "sympatico". There really is no equivalent in English. We need several words in English to even approximate what is meant by the word "sympatico", and English never does capture the thought entirely.
The Hebrew literally states "Light Be!" (that's all) The Hebrews did not think around the bush like English gentlemen. Very direct. To the point.OK, all distractions aside, back to the real topic. I found this fantastic book called, "The Creation, according to the Midrash Rabbah". The Midrash are encyclopedic commentaries on the Bible written gradually between the 3rd and 12th centuries. This whole book is limited to just commentaries on Genesis 1. I randomly opened the book and this is what I found on page 123:"And God called the light day..."
The word yom, day, is not to be understood here as being a name for a day. If that had been the intention, the text would have read, 'And God called har-or...' and not la-or. The use of the letter lamed - la - seems to indicate that God called out to the light and said, 'I want you to shine during the day'.
But check this out, when I was looking the word up on Google I came across a post by another Methodist on Christianforums from more than 10 years ago saying exactly the same thing, which is a great example of sympatico in action! Look what he said:
So do you know any other languages besides English and Hebrew which would allow you to put language translation in general into more perspective? (And do you really know Hebrew? If so then why not just answer the question about the 9 verses?)
You are not a Jew, you are a Christian. Messianics who pretend to be Jews are only fooling themselves, you are not a real Jew.
You are taking Galatians 3:28 out of context. That is only INSIDE Christianity that neither was considered better, Jews or gentiles. If Christianity had really interpreted this the way you do anti-Semitism would never have existed.During the church age, there is no longer Jew, nor Gentile.
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