what does theism actually DO?

It's a great tool to separate people from their hard earned money (You must tithe x amount each paycheck)

It's a great way to justify bigotry and a way to try to shield yourself from looking like a bigot (I can discriminate against gays because religious freedom)

It's a way to get people to support your political agenda without having to spend the time educating those people about actual politics and letting them decide on their own (God wants you to vote Republican. If you don't vote for the Republican then you're voting for Satan)

It's an easy way to identify allies and enemies (Christians good, everyone else bad. Liberal/Progressive Christians also bad).

It's a convenient excuse to not spend the time or effort to learn about the world (quantum mechanics is hard therefore god)

It's a scapegoat for bad/stupid behavior (His religious beliefs include not seeking medical attention so we won't punish him for letting his kid die a slow, painful from some disease that's incredibly easy to cure).

It is evolutionarily cheaper/easier to hold a group together with religion than a democratic process.

Also the local new age shops won't be able charge $175 a month to learn how to chant to the goddess

SeventhValley said:

It is evolutionarily cheaper/easier to hold a group together with religion than a democratic process.

Click to expand...

I don't know if that's true in the modern age.

BaconWizard said:

Maybe not, but it's not really the modern age we're discussing. I think it's a fair point: religion does illicit obedience where involved democracy, being held accountable, or stake-holders consultation might not.

Click to expand...

Sure, as long as the beliefs are similar enough among the population.

BaconWizard said:

Ok. This is initially a sister-thread to Jane's one on Ur-Religion

http://www.christianforums.com/t7840121/

Recent findings suggest and lend strength to the idea that many of us are genetically predisposed towards religiosity.

God gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (as always, Wikipedia is about following the citations and bibliography)

Click to expand...

I have yet to see any peer-reviewed article that actually correlates a polymorphism in the VMAT2-gene to any type of increased spirituality. The claims that Dean Hammer has made are yet to be validated (prove me wrong if I failed to find the correct publication) and even if a statistically significant correlation exists, that still does not prove much.

Correlating a gene to a polycausal disease is hard enough, but to personal character attributes? You're going to have a very hard time establishing something like that.

But, nonetheless, I do believe that faith is an evolutionary advantage, so let's have a go..

Now then. Not everything that evolves has a purpose. It could well be a side-effect of our species' singular ability to observe patterns in things (including behaviour) even where the pattern may actually be a mirage. I will have to check out any studies on addictive tendencies among the religious, or those replacing religion with something else, vs those who have never been committed theists.

However, a few ideas why this might happen have occurred to me, even as someone who is very secular.

Click to expand...

For an Atheist, finding circumstantial (or even statistical) evidence that particular genes correlate with the spirituality of people may serve the line of argumentation that religious belief is "nothing but the product of evolution" - a reductionist tendency that serves no real contribution to debates about supernatural entities (after all, supernatural entities are, by definition, inaccessible to natural observation).

But it's a fun debate nonetheless!

However, would even other atheists agree that for any given social group at a certain time, religion codifies and makes common among its members, certain morals?

Click to expand...

From a sociocultural vantage point: of course! Different cultures have different religions and these usually try to legitimize certain values and morals. After all, genital mutilations are totally fine if some prophet says that women are filled with demons of lust.

From a genetic vantage point: sure, there will be some arguments that advocate that compassion and empathy are traits that further social interaction and therefore secure reproduction.
... On the other hand, one might argue that compassion may just as equally endanger herd survival and therefore may have been, in some cases, a hindrance rather than benefit. Nonetheless, humans of all cultures and ethnicities I know exhibit compassion among each other.

And then there's the whole "can there be compassion and altruism without faith in an omnipotent punisher?" debate.

Religion might be useful in social cohesion across family or tribal divides, where a political leader might be limited.

Religion might also limit the unchecked power of an individual or dynasty so that it does not become too costly to bear for the entire society.

Certainly for those who genuinely believe in their religion it sometimes is a source of comfort. Perhaps this is necessary.

Any other ideas?

Click to expand...

Okay, this debate has gone away from the "what if there is a gene that encodes for faith" to "what are possible benefits of religion", though I do see the connection in terms of evolutionary advantage. I just think that jumping from "I have a gene that tells me to believe in a higher deity" to "I believe in a complex religious authority" is a bit of a leap.

Sociocultural benefits of having a religion:
Social:
- governing authority regardless of social status (e.g. legitimacy to heavily tax the wealthy while reducing rebellion)
- consensus in legislation based on a common belief
- necessary but unpopular legislation can be enforced (not only meant in a suppressive way, but also along the lines of dietary restrictions and hygienic-medical commandments that increase public health)
- celebrations and festivities that provide an "excuse" for common activities


Personal:
- mental health and subsequently physical health
- reduction of fear
- alteration of personal emotional stability (this is religion specific, I would say)

Sorry if I didn't understand this thread quite correctly. Could you be so kind and try to say what you want to hear - I didn't really get what you mean. >_<

Well, atheists in advanced technological societies have half the birthrate of the religious. That's a simply enormous difference in fertility and cannot be ignored! Part of that is the enthusiasm with which atheists embrace the behavior values of the sexual revolution, which is strongly negatively correlated with live births.

So what I expect to happen is a drastic decline in atheism as atheistic subcultures remove themselves from the gene pool through memes like "childfree", "antinatalism", "right to suicide" and the like.

Well, atheists in advanced technological societies have half the birthrate of the religious. That's a simply enormous difference in fertility and cannot be ignored! Part of that is the enthusiasm with which atheists embrace the behavior values of the sexual revolution, which is strongly negatively correlated with live births.

So what I expect to happen is a drastic decline in atheism as atheistic subcultures remove themselves from the gene pool through memes like "childfree", "antinatalism", "right to suicide" and the like.

Death is something that would've bugged us in the past and still does today. A sense of spirit and soul may came out of that and religion was to organize the relationship with the spiritual world (gods, angels, spirits, etc).

light upon light said:

Well, atheists in advanced technological societies have half the birthrate of the religious. That's a simply enormous difference in fertility and cannot be ignored!

Click to expand...

I'll say!! 2% of the population has 50% of the birthrate? They must be having lots of sex while everyone else is too busy praying.

Part of that is the enthusiasm with which atheists embrace the behavior values of the sexual revolution, which is strongly negatively correlated with live births.

Click to expand...

Do you have credible citations for any of this because it sounds like you're making things up.

So what I expect to happen is a drastic decline in atheism as atheistic subcultures remove themselves from the gene pool through memes like "childfree", "antinatalism", "right to suicide" and the like.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure atheism is not genetic and I happily expect the number of nons to grow as science improves and more and more people are alienated from religion by bigotry and violence.

awitch said:

I don't know if that's true in the modern age.

Click to expand...

I think it is. It is the same reason people like political sound bites over researching issues themselves.

For awitch...

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=txj6ROnIUIo

SeventhValley said:

For awitch...

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=txj6ROnIUIo

Click to expand...

.

The instinct to bear children is not a theistic one it is a human one.

Click to expand...

Clearly childbearing is influenced by cultural and belief considerations.

This is why religious people have twice the fertility rate of atheists.