What does predestination refer to?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Maria

The object of the Verb "foreknew" is the pronoun "he".

The supposed condition of "chose to believe" is not found in the text at all.

Douglas Moo looks at the text...
IN Him,

Bill

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I know, Calvinism.

Maria Billingsley said:

I know, Calvinism.

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Good Day, Maria

That is good I refer you to the Prince of Preachers:

"It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else"

That does not change what is in or in this case clearly not in the text.

In Him,

Bill

The question should be, what does predestination mean to man ?


Jesus taught we see in the Gospels, how men predetermine things very well, the weather, the sky. Just as it is today, done professionally with understanding and accuracy, weather forecasts, money markets, hospitals, illnesses, diseases, all done with precision, predicting when we shall die, and what it is that will and has killed us.


But look at what people cannot do ( and are quoted as being hypocrites for it) It cant be known the signs of God...



Matthew 16:The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.





So Jesus pointed out the foolishness of Israel seeking a sign from the Messiah, because they knew in intelligence about everything of this world, and hypocritically knew nothing of God right ion front of them.


Who can believe then and avoid being a hypocrite as Israel was caught out for being ?


Who can know how this world works ( scientifically and governed by politicians and leaders) and still see how Heaven works ?


Signs and wisdom are out.


To the ones wise in this world, who cant see the wisdom of God ( at the same time) the preaching of the cross is not then believed, ( you can tell by their conversation if it is the foolishness of this world)..




1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.





All of this is predestined/predetermined by God, and the way of the Lord is most upright, ( who but the just could believe in the Lord who weights the path of the just)


But God shows favour to the wicked, we saw why they will not learn righteousness ( why they will not believe in their heart unto righteousness, Romans 10:10) as they will deal unjustly now that the judgments of the Lord are in the earth and have no excuse..




Isaiah 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O Lord, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.



Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE:
21 Because that, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, THEY GLORIFIED HIM NOT AS GOD, neither were thankful; BUT BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS, and THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED.
22 PROFESSING THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS,

There's no reason to exclude a known response, because foreknowledge is total. It's not simply being acquainted but a deep, abiding knowledge of every aspect of the individual's being. The only thing that complicates this question is the Augustinian view of the fall, God chose His people because He knew beforehand they were the ones who would respond to His character with love and admiration rather than revulsion.

People cant respond with love, God is love.

People cant respond with revulsion either, as many are called, so are satisfied on the wide path to destruction.

Everybody sees themselves saved/predestined, so it is a popular comforting thought, what is not a thought for anyone is that they are in trouble for being vain.

Fervent said:

The only thing that complicates this question is the Augustinian view of the fall, God chose His people because He knew beforehand they were the ones who would respond to His character with love and admiration rather than revulsion.

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BUT in HIS (supposed)system of having all of Adam's progeny inheriting or being imputed as sinners whom GOD cannot abide ALL ARE EQUAL in EVIL IN HIS SIGHT and without HIS grace will not repent (respond to His character with love and admiration) so those whom HE (supposedly) foresaw would repent reflects only those HE has chosen to grant HIS mercy.

The argument is meaningless:
HE chooses those whom HE foresaw would repent yet because no one can repent without HIS grace foresees HE only sees those HE has given HIS mercy and grace as repenting, ie, responding to His character with love and admiration...?? <head shake> <facepalm> Why the early Church idolized these pagan philosophers so highly I can't imagine...

TedT said:

BUT in HIS (supposed)system of having all of Adam's progeny inheriting or being imputed as sinners whom GOD cannot abide ALL ARE EQUAL in EVIL IN HIS SIGHT and without HIS grace will not repent (respond to His character with love and admiration) so those whom HE (supposedly) foresaw would repent reflects only those HE has chosen to grant HIS mercy.

The argument is meaningless:
HE chooses those whom HE foresaw would repent yet because no one can repent without HIS grace foresees HE only sees those HE has given HIS mercy and grace as repenting, ie, responding to His character with love and admiration...?? <head shake> <facepalm> Why the early Church idolized these pagan philosophers so highly I can't imagine...

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Yeah, Augustine pretty much just bullied his way to importance through lawsuits and other harassments which is why this is a debate in western theology but in the east they never fell for it.

It is simple guys, if you choose righteousness, you have no complaints, whether God chooses you to life or death.


That is even taught in culture in this life, to forgive and wish well to whoever has hurt you.


The greatest hurt is eternal death( or just death) and the greatest acceptance then, is that ( your death)


Extra info for you all is, complaints have no complaints department) no consideration) for those who are inconsiderate

dms1972 said:

I am coming across different views on this in my reading.

Lutherans seems to say God's predestination refers to getting a preacher.

Another writer says that predestination only refers to believers, and that predestination and election are not the same thing.

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Predestination is a term mentioned by Paul the Pharisee. Apparently he's applying his Pharisaic concept of what it is without further explanation. Calvinism on the other hand more resembles the Essene's version of what predestination is. The Essenes thought that predestination is absolute while freewill is just a delution. The Pharisees on the other hand believed that God's predestination somehow can be harmonized with and thus coexists with man's freewill.

In my opinion, God's predestination refers more to God's design of fate for believers such that they make decisions based on choices they are predestined to encounter. Under open witnesses (of the angels and chosen saints), who believers are is thus fully shown by the fate designed for them. Predestination is thus for believers to fully show who they are under open witnesses.

Hawkins said:

Predestination is a term mentioned by Paul the Pharisee. Apparently he's applying his Pharisaic concept of what it is without further explanation. Calvinism on the other hand more resembles the Essene's version of what predestination is. The Essenes thought that predestination is absolute while freewill is just a delution. The Pharisees on the other hand believed that God's predestination somehow can be harmonized with and thus coexists with man's freewill.

In my opinion, God's predestination refers more to God's design of fate for believers such that they make decisions based on choices they are predestined to encounter. Under open witnesses (of the angels and chosen saints), who believers are is thus fully shown by the fate designed for them. Predestination is thus for believers to fully show who they are under open witnesses.

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One of the major issues with "predestination" is that we don't know how God interacts with time. We think of it as a single line with events going in a specified order, this event then that event, but it is all present to God. As Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am." not "Before Abraham was, I was."

Predestined is much much more likely to be of the wrong ( and unfortunate) side of events..



Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.



Luke 13:28 There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and YOU YOURSELVES THRUST OUT.

Matthew 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.
14 FOR MANY BE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.




1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: WHEREUNTO ALSO THEY WERE APPOINTED.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, MADE TO BE TAKEN AND DESTROYED, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own CORRUPTION;

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but WHAT THEY KNOW NATURALLY, AS BRUTE BEASTS, in those things they CORRUPT themselves.

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; CURSED CHILDREN:

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Maria

That is good I refer you to the Prince of Preachers:

"It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else"

That does not change what is in or in this case clearly not in the text.

In Him,

Bill

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"Calvinism is the gospel" sounds really confusing to me. I don't get how any church or denomination can be the gospel. Care to explain?

zoidar said:

"Calvinism is the gospel" sounds really confusing to me. I don't get how any church or denomination can be the gospel. Care to explain?

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Good Day.

The source : https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/spurgeon/On Calvinism - C. H. Spurgeon.pdf

A wider context:

The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

In Him,

Bill

Good Day,

Luther in his Lectures on Romans notes:

http://mis.kp.ac.rw/admin/admin_pan...on Romans (Library of Christian Classics).pdf

But by saying: "Who shall accuse? Who shall condemn? Who
shall separate?" the apostle shows that the elect are not saved
contingently but necessarily. Hence, it is obvious that neither
mere chance nor wonderfully contrary resistance to so many evils
can obstruct it. The reason why this is God's way of salvation and
why he exposes his elect to as many rapacious graspings as there
are evils—he enumerates them here, and they all try to pull the
elect into damnation so that they will not be saved—the reason
why God chooses this method of salvation is that he wants to show
that he saves us not by our merits but by sheer election and his
immutable will, and thus he renders vain the efforts of so many
grasping and very fierce adversaries. For if he did not lead us through so many terrors, he would give us much leeway to think highly of our merits. But now he makes plain that we are saved
by his immutable love. And he proves through all this not our
freedom of decision but the inflexible and firm will of his predestination.

Daniel9v9 said:

Not quite. Predestination in the Lutheran system is that Christians are elected in Christ. That is, whenever Scriptures talk about predestination, it's always to comfort and never to threaten. This is why we reject double predestination.

To better understand the issue it can be helpful to consider the underlying doctrine, and this has to do with holy mysteries. One thing all Christians can agree on is that God's Word does contain holy mysteries. For example, the Trinity, or the person of Christ, are both holy mysteries. That is, articles of faith — divinely received truth that is apprehended by faith and not by reason.

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Calvinists believe that God is a holy mystery, but we Lutherans believe that both God and His works are holy mysteries.

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Point of NT text. . .

The NT does not use the word "mystery" for what is hard or cannot be completely understood. Paul uses the word to mean simply something formerly hidden but now revealed for all to understand, as in the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), the death of Christ, (1 Corinthians 2:1) God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), in including both Jew and Gentile in the NT church (Ephesians 3:3-6), Christ in you the hope of glory (Colossians 1:26-27), the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:5), Romans 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 3:9, 5:32; Colossians 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9.

This is why we can confess that God elects to salvation, but not to damnation; that salvation, from beginning to end, is from God, but that damnation, from beginning to end, is from man. They are not contrary ideas but two truths that need to be upheld, just as we uphold the two natures of Christ.

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God doesn't need to predestine (elect) to damnation, it comes with election to salvation.

All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18), by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), from which wrath Jesus saves (Romans 5:9) those who believe in and trust on him and his atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ in justification apart from their good works (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20) was imputed to Abraham by faith apart from his good works. (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5).

Therefore, all who do not believe and are not saved simply remain in the condemnation into which they were born. . .no need to "elect" them to damnation.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day.

The source : https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/spurgeon/On Calvinism - C. H. Spurgeon.pdf

A wider context:

The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ—the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

In Him,

Bill

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To me it's strange to have the gospel to be a specific theological disposition.

To me the gospel is real simple. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, was resurreced and in him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to all people.

dms1972 said:

Calvinists will say if some rejects the Gospel - they are reprobate. But I don't understand this - so if someone doesn't respond to the Gospel first time they hear it they are reprobate and there is no hope for them?

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That decision is made by the state in which one dies, in belief or unbelief.

zoidar said:

To me it's strange to have the gospel to be a specific theological disposition.

To me the gospel is real simple. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, was resurreced and in him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to all people.

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Which forgiveness comes only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous with the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to one in justification, apart from one's good works (Romans 3:21; 28), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, 3:21) was imputed to Abraham by faith, apart from his good works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 5).