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Knowledge of what?
Is it that time of the month, again?If truth claims exist in objective reality, then they are objective evidence of knowledge that can help determine what's actually true.
Only because this is self-referential. It doesn't work for more general statements... at all.Maybe a better example is:
I am writing a sentence.
The above is both a claim and objective evidence that it's true that I wrote a sentence.
I would rephrase as this:I agree. A claim cannot count as objective evidence of what it's asserting, but it is objective evidence of knowledge.
I would rephrase as this:
A claim cannot count as objective evidence of what it's asserting, but it is objective evidence of belief.
I agree, but this is a very special case of "self-reference" and is probably not relevant to what you are really interested in addressing.Actually I would further clarify and say claims can be objective evidence of what they're asserting, for instance:
I am making a claim.
The above is both a claim and objective evidence that I just made a claim.
I agree - I had overlooked the possibility that the claimant might lie in making a claim (or perhaps be mentally incompetent and unable to make a claim that actually reflects a belief they might hold).Not even that. You can make claims without believing in them.
.....assuming the claimant is not lying and is competent in expressing his beliefs.A claim cannot count as objective evidence of what it's asserting, but it is objective evidence of belief.
I agree - I had overlooked the possibility that the claimant might lie in making a claim (or perhaps be mentally incompetent and unable to make a claim that actually reflects a belief they might hold).
I am saying that a claim is always objective evidence that can help determine what's true.
Yep... but all that basically is reduced to is "a claim is evidence that a claim was made".I actually think everyone agrees right now - at least based on the last few posts, especially Chrili's agreeing to:
.....assuming the claimant is not lying and is competent in expressing his beliefs.
That is still false. It was false the first time you made that assertion, and it is false now.And again, I'm not saying that a claim is always objective evidence of what it's asserting, in some cases it can be, but in most it's not. I am saying that a claim is always objective evidence that can help determine what's true.
So if a liar continues making false claims, eventually you could determine he's lying if his claims start to contradict each other and you could determine this solely based on his claims alone, no other evidence. However, if he only makes one claim that is a lie, you'd need addition evidence to determine the truth. Again, addition claims that contradict the original would be addition evidence.
I think a claim can never be objective evidence to support establishing the truthfulness of the claim, except in those odd, self-referential cases.And again, I'm not saying that a claim is always objective evidence of what it's asserting, in some cases it can be, but in most it's not.
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