What does membership mean in a multi-congregation and multi-denominational context??

[mreeed]

Not sure the best forum for this, touches on several issues...

I am a member of a non-denominational Baptist rooted local congregation (18-20 members, many kids and others). Baptized there and official voting member, having signed whatever constitution we had as a fledgling congregation at the time. (Think it has changed, can't remember if it was required to sign it again.) Meeting on Sunday. I have served in nursery, treasurer, secretary, and for the second year now in pre-school children's ministry.

Several years later or so, a small messianic congregation was established in our city (about 12-25 people per service), meeting on shabbat, and there also I have been there from the beginning. Off and on I have been on the leadership team there, and am currently technically on a three year term and holding through transition with a new spiritual leader for the last 6 months. (Though I believe this has been forgotten and that the leadership team has come to be taken for granted as on indefinite terms since it is hard to get people committed/involved in general.)

Until now in the messianic congregation we have deliberately not had official membership. From what I understand/recall, this was done by our previous leader because of situations like mine, ie not to rock the boat for others who are members elsewhere, not knowing how it would be seen to be a member of two congregations. We did our best to be congregationally led, and had meetings several times during the year to decide matters such as liturgy, torah readings, organizational structure, tithe of the tithe, members of leadership team etc. If you came three times and showed up to the meeting you could vote.

Attendance at the last couple general meetings has gone down, with only one or 2 non-leadership attendees. Probably didn't help that we had no formal agenda given prior and little to decide. New spiritual leader seems to make changes as he sees fit, discusses them with us, but doesn't leave a lot of room for disagreement. I wish our constitution were more clear. He does his best to shepherd the flock, and respond to the Spirit's leading, and this is his first time in the role (but still they are a somewhat older couple). I don't want to speak against him. They are already dear brother and sister in the Lord. Yet somewhat prone to unnecessary offense. At least four people I know of (incl one key couple on the leadership team) are quietly not coming back after conflicts I was privy to, not wanting to create trouble. So that is one concern.

And now he seems to be recommending membership to boost commitment level. As I've touched on, I don't think this would help, and it feels he is taking away incentive for commitment. And I get the sense that messianic membership may entail more than we might anticipate, from the judaism angle of things.

The Spirit is consistently moving in my other congregation in the Body, gaining slow momentum. In the messianic one I see pockets, but it hasn't been an easy road. I try to help things run smoother and facilitate peace.

Pastor(s) at Sunday congregation are aware of my involvement in the other congregation, I'm not sure to what extent, though I try to hint to people from time to time. I am in a slow (my fault) ongoing conversation with our original and now opened up to second pastor (amazingly we're now blessed with 3 pastors in our little group!) that kind of began with my brother before he left/moved away to sabbath meeting only. People in the congregation shy away from that kind of conversation, and pastors seem ok to let things be, though theologically in email/conversation it may come to a head. Theoretically I think the right response could avoid it; I tend to peace and resolving conflict, I have a passion for it but I am slow, it takes energy and I need to get back into it. Maybe I don't want to face that God may have other plans than giving me the 'right' response. Though I think the messianic community needs it as a whole as we are getting our bearings and theology straight in general.

What are peoples' experiences with membership at two congregations or the concepts and decisions involved in the context of what I've mentioned? When congregations meet at the same time, which tends to be most of the time, I guess this issue tends to resolve itself, but what about when they don't? Experiences? Am I over-analyzing? I don't want to be forced to choose, especially for reasons that appear pointless to me and needlessly restrict ways I can bless either one. We are having a meeting to discuss membership (and other things) at my messianic congregation tomorrow noon, just found out today. I'm not sure what we may need to decide upon in advance of our AGM, and that is coming up quickly at the end of May. Thanks for any thoughts/advice

Side Note: It is issues like this that make me wish CF allowed anonymous second accounts. Because I would so like to invite people I know to the forum, but then I couldn't anonymously ask for the advice and not have people know who I am talking about, when I believe that is what love would do. I know I know, the sock issue, flame wars and such, but maybe if I keep asking a way might be found.

 

[Heber Book List]

From the point of view of an Ordained Minister who has led, successfully, a denominational and a Messianic congregation, simultaneously, I would suggest that you talk to your Pastor about this and be as open as you can; I managed it because I was the leader of both. Dual Constitutional Membership can create lots of problems - all sorts of conficts are bound to happen. I did not have a Constitutional Membership of the Messianic congregation for this reason.

As a believer, you have signed a constitution with one congregation, therefore your loyalty should be to them, unless they have specifically said they have no objection to you attending another congregation as well. As Scripture says, for good reason, you cannot serve two masters.

PS. If you were in my congregation and I learned of this situation, I would be thinking about revoking your membership and asking you to decide what you wished to do, because it would likely cause problems in my congregation.

 

[visionary]

Transcending the physical and politics, I wish for the participants to see the spiritual value in its growth.

 

[mreeed]

Hi visionary,
Not sure what you are referring to, can you explain? By participants I assume you mean those who I am/would be in these various discussions with? To see the spiritual value in the growth of what? The Body by any means? The messianic way in particular? I definitely hope we can transcend the physical and politics.

 

[mreeed]

From the point of view of an Ordained Minister who has led, successfully, a denominational and a Messianic congregation, simultaneously, I would suggest that you talk to your Pastor about this and be as open as you can; I managed it because I was the leader of both. Dual Constitutional Membership can create lots of problems - all sorts of conficts are bound to happen. I did not have a Constitutional Membership of the Messianic congregation for this reason.

As a believer, you have signed a constitution with one congregation, therefore your loyalty should be to them, unless they have specifically said they have no objection to you attending another congregation as well. As Scripture says, for good reason, you cannot serve two masters.

PS. If you were in my congregation and I learned of this situation, I would be thinking about revoking your membership and asking you to decide what you wished to do, because it would likely cause problems in my congregation.

How on earth did you manage such a feat? I would love to hear more about your congregational situation, how it came about and how you worked with people to accomplish it. Now that is applied theology with a 'vengeance'! Would you find reason to revoke my membership if the messianic congregation decided not to go the way of membership? You seem to be in a similar but more extreme boat. How would you say you were not serving two masters with leading two different denomination congregations? You make a good point about first/default loyalty, I think I needed to hear someone say it, too many here would cut ties in the opposite direction.

 

[Heber Book List]

How on earth did you manage such a feat? I would love to hear more about your congregational situation, how it came about and how you worked with people to accomplish it. Now that is applied theology with a 'vengeance'! Would you find reason to revoke my membership if the messianic congregation decided not to go the way of membership? You seem to be in a similar but more extreme boat. How would you say you were not serving two masters with leading two different denomination congregations? You make a good point about first/default loyalty, I think I needed to hear someone say it, too many here would cut ties in the opposite direction.

I began working in a denominational church in a town and, after seeig the need, I started the MJ congregation. We hired a local Church hall in another town and met there. A number of my normal congregation used to attend the MJ event, so it was no secret, and it did not impinge on my 'paid' job, primarily because we met once a month and it was on Shabbat, not on a Sunday. The Leadership team for the MJ group were a family from my regular congregation - they were Jews - and I gave teaching and oversight support. We did Passovers for the local Church, who were really acceptable to the idea, which then spread to a couple of other local congregations. I did not go for a formal membership of the MJ group because almost all of them also belonged to a denomination and I specifically did not want to get into multi Constitutional problems, shared with Baptists, Catholics, Methodists etc., just enjoying ourselves as believers of different backgrounds. I did not share two masters because the two were kept very much apart, and MJ is not a denomination. I was working in a 'multi-faith' situation - a favourite Church term in which all are expected to be involved - and it just happened to be that I was working with MJ's, Jews and Christians, and the meetings were when I was 'off duty' on Saturdays. As for teaching etc., my local congregation were always taught by me from an MJ perspective, just not quite so explicitly as the MJ group. The numbers involved were about 80 or so in the denominational congregation and 20-30 in the MJ congregation, the latter mostly coming from outlying areas and often a different set of people at, times, in a meeting!

The only problem I would have if I were your minister is that as you held senior offices in the denominational congregation, I would expect loyalty from you in your 'home' church. It can be very hard, as a leader, when some of your most senior people start to wander off and join another group, especially if I and the others in the leadership team were nor well acqainted with what you were doing. Rumours of why so-and-so is going to here or there kill far to many congregations, especially if the Minister is not fully aware enough to answer any questions about what you are doing. My congregation knew what I did on one day off a month and were not fussed by it - it was open and they could attend if they wanted to. I also created a web-site for the MJ group which contained the same personal contact details for me, as did the Church web site.

For me, as an Ordained Minister, with some years working under my belt, I have come to see that when we make promises at weddings, baptisms or whatever, they are as final as promises we make when we agree to belong to a particular Church (whether or not a formal constitution was signed). The church I belong to now that I am retired has no Constitution, but it is where I am, and they have a great love for the word from Genesis to Revelation, Hebrew and all! In the wider Church many people flitter about always looking for something 'extra' or different, but a mark of true leadership is to keep ones honesty in what you do and say, and if you want to be involved in another sort of ministry, go speak to your minister - the one set over you, spiritually, by G_d and involve him in what you want to try, or do, and heed his advice; or leave! If he disagrees then you have to decide whether your call is from G_d to move on, or are the problems in the MJ congregation a warning for you not to become involved. Incidentally, I admire your willingness to follow Torah and to not speak AGAINST the MJ leader - now make sure that your actions are not speaking against your congregational leader.

Yes, I would revoke your membership even if the MJ had no Constitution, simply because one has to be able to have trust in those who have held high office; if, as your minister, I cannot trust you because you are working behind my back, with little or no accountability, I would take action. Your assumption that I might know is simply not good enough - you are a leader of men, women and children, so lead and act like one. Be open and seek the advice of the person G_d has appointed to give you spiritual oversight.

 

[visionary]

Hi visionary,
Not sure what you are referring to, can you explain? By participants I assume you mean those who I am/would be in these various discussions with? To see the spiritual value in the growth of what? The Body by any means? The messianic way in particular? I definitely hope we can transcend the physical and politics.

Christians are so segregated that they as a body of believers have been mean spirited towards each other rather than united in love, recognizing each others strength and weaknesses, encouraging each other, praying for each other, and helping each other.

Transcending the politics of religion to be the godly person God meant for us to be, full of compassion, and loving towards each other and the world. I understand the doctrines that separate us, and I am a big proponent of stopping it from spreading in this corner of CF. That does not stop me from caring about the people.

If someone who is crossing the politically religious lines to fellowship, I say go for it. Be respectful in their home, because that is their haven of peace.

 

[mreeed]

I lost my post to the Net Neutrality Red Alert, and now edits to random computer quirks; hopefully I can remember the gist of it.

Thank you for your response, and for helping me sort through some things in my head and spirit. I should clarify what I meant by 'hinting' above - I meant it essentially in a membership context - the openness to allude in general to my second congregation in passing, just so I don't feel like I'm hiding the fact that I attend two congregations. Because nobody ever acknowledges it to me or says anything about it to me, it seems almost a foreign concept to them. Maybe it is just as well. So while I appreciate it as a real concern for you to bring up in a context like this, I don't see this group of people as being open to being led away in the manner you describe. Many or most of the core of families from the beginning are still the core, and unity is deep and going deeper and encompassing new people. That said, as it has turned out, I seem to be the last 'man' standing of those who are theologically inclined (besides my pastor(s), at least one will dig in and then some, though it seems he has mellowed). But there is a grassroots movement among the ladies for Bible study in the last year or so. I haven't been part of this till literally this week, I joined because I need a jumpstart but am duly noting ways I need to watch myself.

It could be said that I had an influence on my brother and sister who used to attend. But my sister never attended my MJ congregation; she left to go to an unrelated non-MJ congregation, then married and moved away, and my brother attended both with me both from the beginning also until he married and moved away. (And they are stronger on MJ than me.) One newcomer did see my CJB Bible which I don't usually bring there and asked about it and the conversation and her interest in the Jewish people led to me inviting her just to the congregational Passover (she came). This led to nothing further and she still comes from time to time. I know one other family from our church was invited for a family Passover by a friend of theirs I don't know, I don't think that was seen as a problem by anyone. Others of my friends that have come here and there are still pretty mainline and ultimately have not stayed. Even they still don't always remember that I don't eat pork, don't celebrate Christmas or whatever. I don't make it an issue, maybe I see these things as a bit more prophetic than dogmatic, though this is the first time I've found those words to articulate it, might have to ponder that a bit more. God has kept His ekklessia while for a thousand or two years cut off from its Hebrew roots, but He has sustained her; He can bring another Emmaus Road if and when He sees fit; I know I will also have plenty to learn. 'Nine tenths' (of the 10 Commandments) is not so terrible as some seem to think. So I don't believe anybody has been influenced away from anything else towards MJ by me, that is not the way I tend to present things, partly who I am, partly by design.

As best I recall, in talking about things messianic, and me asking my pastor a few years ago what would be of concern to him, he did not want me encouraging people in the congregation to a messianic understanding, presumably because of the potential for creating division. I have respected this, and say next to nothing to people about it, as well as consciously not taking positions of trust where differing views come into play. (I believe pre-school which is all I teach is too early to introduce these ideas in a children's ministry setting.) In this, the only way I was explicitly asked to be trustworthy, when I asked about it directly though I can't remember how explicitly, I have been successfully, for the 8 years I have been attending both. Maybe I have been doing some things he is unaware of, but I wouldn't say I've been working behind his back. If there is a doorway to expression of non-mainline biblical interpretations there, I know it is through my pastors, I have no intent of jumping the fence.

The conversations with my pastor started as mostly between him and my brother. Being both men that seemed more natural, and I guess I more left it to him though I was happy to listen and contribute when I was able. After my brother moved away, my pastor and I later picked up the conversation, mostly by email, but it seems what went before has changed how the conversation has been set up for me more than I expected. I have mentioned the dialogue to my second pastor and am excited to include him in the conversation; he seems better able to understand me and where I am coming from whether or not he would agree. Now there is even a new third pastor (but he has been a member the longest). All on equal footing but only original one is full time.

I do want to tell them more about what I am doing elsewhere, just not quite sure how. I would have invited him to attend, but honestly my brother and I were both unsure if he would have gotten the right takeaway from it, and we didn't want to speak against the other congregation. So maybe we didn't talk so much about it because we were leery of opening up to that idea. But now I'm realizing I'm hazy on what my brother would have said about it, so I just texted him. Maybe the newer pastor would see it different and be more able to take it with a grain of salt? Dunno. Even here maybe I am giving the wrong impression, but MJ congregations face unique challenges, as you know.

I have fallen into leadership there because I saw a need and wanted to make a difference, transition was coming, to take burden off people stressed, and as a corrective and peacemaker of sorts as needed in my own small way. And three years ago I was newly missing my second sibling that moved away and wanted to be a greater part of community. In hindsight I sometimes wonder if we should ever have been organized as a congregation as such at all, but I don't want to doubt what others claim as the Spirit's leading, or minimize the need others would feel much more strongly than me of having a congregation to be a part of. And sometimes He teaches through the backroads. But since we are one I wanted to help make the best of it.

I see myself as a loyal person, but I know a piece of that is that I have a hard time leaving anything if it is something I actually have to make a decision about. Others in the leadership team have reservations about membership, but I think it will go through, maybe with some adjustment, but still not go over well. You can't force commitment, nor conform it to a mold, either the environment for it is there/nurtured, or it isn't. I want to be able to help us through it, not be forced out because of it, it seems so needless. I've made my position and concerns known as clear as I know how, as well as where my first loyalty has to be at least for now.

I think we aspire to be 'multi-faith' as you put it, at least as far as the people involved, but haven't figured out how to get there. And beyond that, that seems a tricky balance to maintain. When you call it multi-faith, how do you ensure Yeshua remains the centre? Maintain a balance? Or maybe that is partly how. Our few (2) Jewish congregants beside our spiritual leader couple, when they come, seem to be the most emphatic about Yeshua, (and did not come to Him through an MJ setting). And vice-versa for Torah. So I would agree about the 'new and different' aspect. Not that people always mean it that way; it is a way to make one's faith one's own, freshness can feel/be more real, but that can be a trap too. Our Cornerstone, Who is a stumbling stone, but also the bridge. What is multi-faith though? My gut reaction relates the term to watered down gospel/theology trying to please everyone, maybe that is inter-faith maybe that but this strikes me as something different. And maybe something potentially useful denominationally-wise as well if we but knew how. (But I should stop going off on a tangent before you even explain what you mean.)

On another note, of reasons to stay at the denominational congregation, I have faith that God will solve a conflict between my pastor and one of my best friends and I want to have a front row seat when that happens. It's not on the radar of anyone else there. That pastor has led one reconciliation already from the church split that started our congregation, at potential personal cost to himself (he was willing to reunite and even step down if the other church had been willing, everyone else was on board except me having an inside track to certain trust issues), and God is clearly blessing it, but there is a second, forgotten one - from when he left pastoring here for a time to start a house church - that I see needs to happen.

Also bringing my other sister to that church is one of the biggest ways I know to minister to her. I suppose if it came to giving up membership, I could still attend either or both for at least a time, but hopefully finish out the children's ministry term and just wouldn't be able to vote. And/or of course step down from the other leadership. Then maybe the next step could be serving in a different organization instead?

I never thought I would become so part of one congregation let alone two, though there are ways I feel on the outside of both. If I think back, I have a more para-church mindset that hasn't really gone away. It felt like there was pressure to become a member as soon as baptized, and I did, for good or ill. (Not everyone does now though.) I have had a sense for awhile that at some point God may be calling me something completely different, but it is hard to understand the trajectory. Like David not taking the straight-line path to his calling?

If I leave anywhere I want it to be quietly and honorably, not forced. I hope you might reconsider revoking my membership, but if you still feel that way I respect your well-earned opinion on the matter. I think I have done my best to act in good faith, except too slowly. Does that make sense? I feel God uses me to help smooth things out for others in these kinds of ways (is that the way to put it?). I pray He will do this for me too. Bringing people together in the Kingdom in His time, nobody left behind. I hope.

 

[Heber Book List]

I lost my post to the Net Neutrality Red Alert, hopefully I can remember the gist of it.

Thank you for your response, and for helping me sort through some things in my head and spirit. I should clarify what I meant by 'hinting' above - I meant it essentially in a membership context - the openness to allude in general to my second congregation in passing, just so I don't feel like I'm hiding the fact that I attend two congregations. Because nobody ever acknowledges it to me or says anything about it to me, it seems almost a foreign concept to them. Maybe it is just as well. So while I appreciate it as a real concern for you to bring up in a context like this, I don't see this group of people as being open to being led away in the manner you describe. Many or most of the core of families from the beginning are still the core, and unity is deep and going deeper and encompassing new people. That said, as it has turned out, I seem to be the last 'man' standing of those who are theologically inclined (besides my pastor(s), at least one will dig in and then some, though it seems he has mellowed). But there is a grassroots movement among the ladies for Bible study in the last year or so. I haven't been part of this till literally this week, I joined because I need a jumpstart but am duly noting ways I need to watch myself.

It could be said that I had an influence on my brother and sister who used to attend. But my sister never attended my MJ congregation; she left to go to an unrelated non-MJ congregation, then married and moved away, and my brother attended both with me both from the beginning also until he married and moved away. (And they are stronger on MJ than me.) One newcomer did see my CJB Bible which I don't usually bring there and asked about it and the conversation and her interest in the Jewish people led to me inviting her just to the congregational Passover (she came). This led to nothing further and she still comes from time to time. I know one other family from our church was invited for a family Passover by a friend of theirs I don't know, I don't think that was seen as a problem by anyone. Others of my friends that have come here and there are still pretty mainline and ultimately have not stayed. Even they still don't always remember that I don't eat pork, don't celebrate Christmas. I don't make it an issue, maybe I see these things as a bit more prophetic than dogmatic. God has kept His ekklessia while for a thousand or two years cut off from its Hebrew roots, but He has sustained her; He can bring another Emmaus Road if and when He sees fit; I know I will also have plenty to learn. 'Nine tenths' is not so terrible as some seem to think. So I don't believe anybody has been influenced away from anything else towards MJ by me, that is not the way I tend to present things, partly who I am, partly by design.

As best I recall, in talking about things messianic, and me asking my pastor a few years ago what would be of concern to him, he did not want me encouraging people in the congregation to a messianic understanding, presumably because of the potential for creating division. I have respected this, and say next to nothing to people about it, as well as consciously not taking positions of trust where differing views come into play. (I believe pre-school which is all I teach is too early to introduce these ideas in a children's ministry setting.) In this, the only way I was explicitly asked to be trustworthy, when I asked about it directly though I can't remember how explicitly, I have been successfully, for the 8 years I have been attending both. Maybe I have been doing some things he is unaware of, but I wouldn't say I've been working behind his back. If there is a doorway to expression of non-mainline biblical interpretations there, I know it is through my pastors, I have no intent of jumping the fence.

I do want to tell them more about what I am doing elsewhere, just not quite sure how. I would have invited him to attend, but honestly I wasn't sure if he would have gotten the right message from it, and I don't want to speak against the other congregation. Maybe the newer pastor could take it with a grain of salt? Dunno. Even here maybe I am giving the wrong impression, but MJ congregations face unique challenges, as you know.

I have fallen into leadership there because I saw a need and wanted to make a difference, transition was coming, to take burden off people stressed, and as a corrective and peacemaker of sorts as needed in my own small way. And three years ago I was newly missing my second sibling that moved away and wanted to be a greater part of community. In hindsight I sometimes wonder if we should ever have been organized as a congregation as such at all, but I don't want to doubt what others claim as the Spirit's leading, or minimize the need others would feel much more strongly than me of having a congregation to be a part of. And sometimes He teaches through the backroads. But since we are one I wanted to help make the best of it.

I see myself as a loyal person, but I know a piece of that is that I have a hard time leaving anything if it is something I actually have to make a decision about. Others in the leadership team have reservations about membership, but I think it will go through, maybe with some adjustment, but still not go over well. You can't force commitment, nor conform it to a mold, either the environment for it is there/nurtured, or it isn't. I want to be able to help us through it, not be forced out because of it, it seems so needless. I've made my position and concerns known as clear as I know how, as well as where my first loyalty has to be at least for now.

I think we aspire to be 'multi-faith' as you put it, at least as far as the people involved, but haven't figured out how to get there. And beyond that, that seems a tricky balance to maintain. When you call it multi-faith, how do you ensure Yeshua remains the centre? Our Cornerstone, Who is a stumbling stone, but also the bridge...

I have faith that God will solve a conflict between my denomination pastor and one of my best friends and I want to have a front row seat when that happens. It's not on the radar of anyone else there. That pastor has led one reconciliation already from the church split that started our congregation, at potential personal cost to himself (he was willing to reunite and even step down if the other church had been willing, everyone else was on board except me having an inside track to certain trust issues), and God is clearly blessing it, but there is a second, forgotten one - from when he left pastoring here for a time to start a house church - that I see needs to happen.

Also bringing my other sister to that church is one of the biggest ways I know to minister to her. I suppose if it came to giving up membership, I could still attend either or both for at least a time, but hopefully finish out the children's ministry term and just wouldn't be able to vote. And/or of course step down from the other leadership.

I never thought I would become so part of one congregation let alone two, though there are ways I feel on the outside of both. If I think back, I have a more para-church mindset that hasn't really gone away. It felt like there was pressure to become a member as soon as baptized, and I did, for good or ill. (Not everyone does now though.) I have had a sense for awhile that at some point God may be calling me something completely different, but it is hard to understand the trajectory. Like David not taking the straight-line path to his calling?

If I leave anywhere I want it to be quietly and honorably, not forced. I hope you might reconsider revoking my membership, but if you still feel that way I respect your well-earned opinion on the matter. I think I have done my best to act in good faith, except too slowly. Does that make sense? I feel God uses me to help smooth things out for others in these kinds of ways (is that the way to put it?). I pray He will do this for me too. Bringing people together in the Kingdom in His time, nobody left behind. I hope.

I am, literally, just going to bed (it is close to midnight here), but I'll respond when I get up, tomorrow

 

[Heber Book List]

My goodness there are some complexities there! Congregations are strange - they are made up of humans, like us. Some can be fickle and others can 'belong' because they always have done, or because it's somewhere their friends frequent. and then there are variations in depth of belief, on an individual basis. I discovered early on that there are all sorts of undercurrents and circles within circles, and so what appears a minor situation can soon blow up in the face of the Leader, even if it is not directly his / her fault - he / she is a common target; the Leader is in charge until somethig goes a bit haywire, then the Leader loses out. I was in a prvileged position running the two groups, simply because I was the Pastor, and the congregation trusted me and the work I was doing. The denominational congregation had no problem with MJism, being strong evangelicals.

This is why I was emphasising doing everything very openly, so that, having been a part of the Leadership team, you are not seen by others as disgruntled and edging out. I have been on the receiving end of these situations more than once. If it causes a split in a congregation then the two soon become three: the remains of the original congregation, those who have gone to a / the new congregation and those who have left 'church' or gone to another denomination altogether. Freindships can be fractured and lot of hurt can rise to the surface which the Pastor has then to sort out. These have been my experiences in denominational congregations. MJ's, without all the trappings of denominational 'law' survive better, as far as I can see, but with no rules at all, they need strong, trained leadership (trained as in pastoral care etc). Where there is no law there can be no order. I can see your personal situation, but would still counsel you to call the Pastor and have a very open chat. Sometimes we have to put the greater good before our own comfort zone

Did you note my comment about your own personal accountability? In the denominational congregation, where you signed up, you have personal accountability via the Leadership team - my concern here returns to your commitment to that congregation, to the Pastor (s), and submission (or accountability), to that group of people in the sight of G_d. This is why, in Leviticus, there is a ban on speaking against your anointed leader, and why we see that G_d often trod on such activity pretty firmly. For a Christian Testament version see where Paul was disrespectful to the High Priest, and he immedaitely apologised, unreservedly, when he reaslised what he had done. It is a serious crime in G_d's eyes.

I can only continue to encourage you to bring these things out into the open with your Pastor, and then see what options there might be, praying that G_d will guide you in the right direction. Of course you are under G_d's direction at all times, and he comes first in every situation; if you accept the Pastror as called to that congreegation, by G_d, then you are bound to show him every courtesy and respect, unless he begins to teach heresy or to lead an immoral, in which case you are free from your commitment to his ministry.

Shabbat shalom

 

[Meowzltov]

I am a member of a church, and also attend a synagogue about once a month and on holy days (in fact I'll be there tonight for Shabbat). I find there is no trouble on either end. The Rabbi at the Reform synagogue and those who know I am a Christian have serious problems with Yeshua in my life, but not with the church membership per se. In fact, there are lots of intermarries who attend two congregations, as well as Christians in the choir, and non-Jewish college students curious about Judaism who also have Christian churches. My Catholic parish has absolutely no problems with my praying at a synagogue, and indeed encourages me to nourish my Jewish identity, so long as I remain faithful to the messiah.

 

[mreeed]

Thank you for the shabbat wishes, G_d's extravagance in crafting this day was really put on display for me today! I hope you had an awesome shabbat as well.

Your point is crystal clear and well taken. That you can appreciate the background and situation at least feels helpful and the thought it seems I have earned your estimation of good faith/integrity (if not trust) up to this point is appreciated. Though perhaps that is an assumption based on gracious wording. Just carrying on a conversation like this in close to 'real-time' (speaking of my side, and given my proclivities, no expectations on you) is motivating. Even if that one post did take me a block of 6-8 focused hours to write. And that's without including any theology! Thanks for bearing with me. Instant communication is an oxymoron! Joking, I know that's why you told me to -call- my pastor.

[For the record, only since my Red-Alerted post somehow reappeared and it's basically the only part I missed, I am not sure what constitutes senior offices in the church; it has not felt like what I have done in the denominational church would be senior, though of course charge of minutes and finances are positions of trust. I've been using the word denominational because you did to distinguish from MJ, but we are not affiliated with any denomination and have no board or special leadership meetings I am privy to. Besides pastors' oversight, there is no hierarchy of leadership, (even with respect to the differing situations between the three pastors), we just step up and pitch in.]

I have heightened ambition to play my part in trying to do the right thing in certain complex social situations like this, and I love seeing the ways G_d works in them, but sometimes I do get bogged down in the details and my brain fogs up or the breaker trips and action slows down. I'm not trying to dodge responsibility, I get it, and know things have gone from back to front burner, but I still need to take some things methodically. (And I just finished dealing with round 1 of another complex situation for Mother's Day. Result being she postponed it. Sigh. But now there is time and opportunity to plan something better for later and still potential for a win-win in that sense.)

Would appreciate prayer for both situations. If I can return the favour somehow let me know. Thanks

 

[Heber Book List]

Thank you for the shabbat wishes, G_d's extravagance in crafting this day was really put on display for me today! I hope you had an awesome shabbat as well.

Your point is crystal clear and well taken. That you can appreciate the background and situation at least feels helpful and the thought it seems I have earned your estimation of good faith/integrity (if not trust) up to this point is appreciated. Though perhaps that is an assumption based on gracious wording. Just carrying on a conversation like this in close to 'real-time' (speaking of my side, and given my proclivities, no expectations on you) is motivating. Even if that one post did take me a block of 6-8 focused hours to write. And that's without including any theology! Thanks for bearing with me. Instant communication is an oxymoron! Joking, I know that's why you told me to -call- my pastor.

[For the record, only since my Red-Alerted post somehow reappeared and it's basically the only part I missed, I am not sure what constitutes senior offices in the church; it has not felt like what I have done in the denominational church would be senior, though of course charge of minutes and finances are positions of trust. I've been using the word denominational because you did to distinguish from MJ, but we are not affiliated with any denomination and have no board or special leadership meetings I am privy to. Besides pastors' oversight, there is no hierarchy of leadership, (even with respect to the differing situations between the three pastors), we just step up and pitch in.]

I have heightened ambition to play my part in trying to do the right thing in certain complex social situations like this, and I love seeing the ways G_d works in them, but sometimes I do get bogged down in the details and my brain fogs up or the breaker trips and action slows down. I'm not trying to dodge responsibility, I get it, and know things have gone from back to front burner, but I still need to take some things methodically. (And I just finished dealing with round 1 of another complex situation for Mother's Day. Result being she postponed it. Sigh. But now there is time and opportunity to plan something better for later and still potential for a win-win in that sense.)

Would appreciate prayer for both situations. If I can return the favour somehow let me know. Thanks

Hi there, all said is meant!

In Church circles senior staff / leadership group / Trustees / will include, but not necessarily be limted to, the Leader (Ordained or otherwise), the Church Secretary and the Treasurer ergo you were /are a leader in your congregation, and people tend, rightly, to look to such people for examples in how to live, faith building, guidance etc etc. This is why I have a problem in what you describe. I have worked with a large number of people who hold those offices and, as far as I can see in my many years of ministry, they are key people when in office and great confidants to the Leader / Minister etc., when not serving in office. Some I have worked with I was glad when they stood down, the majority I was confident in working with them and grateful for the support they gave to me in my task(s) in Church. As you rightly noted, I have a high view of officials in a Church setting - I have, on two occasions refused to Ordain a total of three people as Elders, because were not fit for the task because they literally demanded to be leaders in the Church. Holding office is not something to be demanded it should be a call of G_d.

Anyway, I wish you well and pray that G_d will enable you in your work for and with him.

BTW - trust is gained by knowing someone, so we have a while to go yet, but on here I am just giving you the benfit of my life in leadership in a Church. It was never perfect (my role), and at times I could happily have walked away, but I stuck with it to the end, as you must do, and trust in the Lord with all your heart!

Shalom aleichem, chaver.

 

[mreeed]

Shalom Heber and others,
I know it's been awhile but thought I would give an update, sorry I didn't keep up with this. I talked to my denominational pastor about my messianic involvement as openly as I knew how, but he did not seem too concerned and focused on continuing theological conversation. Which we are still doing, still slowly. Afterwards it seemed I was convicted to bring it up with the messianic leader just to be clear, even though it felt like I had already been open with him. I was surprised to find it was the messianic leader who had the concern (insecurity?) once I brought it up to him. He did not think I should be simultaneous leadership or even a member of two congregations at the same time, though he wavered a little when I told him of my other pastor's reaction.

Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised; he is highly principled and takes his role very seriously in the ways he sees to do so, but to the peacemaker in me it feels like he sometimes offends people unnecessarily. Unyielding personality, with subtle cultural and ESL barriers perhaps? I could be wrong, but it seems this is at least partly how we've lost both the strong leadership couples that we had before he came on (both around since near the beginning of the congregation now lost from attendance, not just leadership, though one couple is away with unclear return). (Not meaning to speak against, but it just relates to the decision.)

Anyways, before the fall term I withdrew from the leadership (children's ministry teacher) in the denominational congregation, out of respect for the messianic leader to minimize that conflict of interest perception for the time being while I continued to seek God's will on the matter. Fast forward to now, Membership forms (4 pages long!) are just now finalized and make this explicit. "I fully affirm that I am not a member of any other congregation. y/n". Honestly I identify more with what God is doing and stretching me in the denominational church. I don't know what to expect from leadership going forward in the messianic congregation. Since baptism will not be a requirement it feels like both too much red tape and not enough spiritually is being required. Leadership was to submit their membership forms by today, but it seems in writing this I am begging off for now and not going in. Ironically our annual meeting for the denominational congregation is today, I just came back from it...

Nobody in messianic leadership has been replaced yet, possibly also for membership reasons. There are now me, three other single people and the pastor couple on the leadership team. It feels leadership (and membership, per se) has less input than it used to be, and my role is already scaled back (essentially from choosing music and prayer to prayer email list), so they will do ok without me but it feels bad to be potentially another leadership person leaving. Which is what I'm leaning towards. Seems selfish in a way though still, not sure why.

It feels like in being part of the Hebrew roots/messianic movement I have sidelined myself from my first love so to speak that introduced me to it and was instrumental in building my faith: apologetics. Two of my siblings (my closest brother and little sister) came along with me for the messianic ride, now they live out of town. My one sister comes with me regularly to my denominational congregation. She is disproportionately needy in many ways, and before then it was my little sister I was pouring into. But now it feels God is putting my agnostic/atheistic brothers on my heart more. In hindsight, if they hadn't fallen off the radar at church beforehand, maybe university skepticism wouldn't have given them the hit that it did, not even believing Jesus existed, never mind being who he claimed to be. My other brother and I have conversations with them when we can but few opportunities lately and don't know how to reach them. If I didn't feel tied down with people and unfinished business, I have half a mind to investigate the church of a respected local apologist pastor, to hone that mindset. Maybe sometimes I feel I can use it too to shore up my own belief.

We've gone from being a Christian home when I was young to a kind-of well-blended but spiritually fragmented family. I know God had a plan in all of it, that has already been about 30 years in the making, I'm a positive person and I've focused on the benefit to my second (now also deceased) mother, my adopted sister and little sister that came later, but lately it bothers me that it sort of came at the 'expense' of my younger brothers who never knew a strong Christian parent. We had a very strong Christian heritage with 1st Mom, weak pentecostal/baptist one with 2nd, 3rd Mum active in United Church. Dad lost Christian faith seemingly gradually and not too long into his 2nd marriage he shifted deeply and past logic into the God is love, Bible is trash camp. Does God honour the prayer of a parent not to bring a child into the world if they will not grow up to love the Him? I think my 1st mother may have prayed/desired this for her children (me and 3 brothers, stillborn sister due to her terminal cancer). Might help sustain me in a leap of faith for them, myself too...

I know I've strayed rather off-topic to the question, I don't necessarily know if or how it relates yet, but it is just on my heart as I try to think and pray this through and consider the trajectory of my life in the context of those I'm strongest bonded to and motivated to influence. Prayers, thoughts, experience, biblical principle appreciated, thank you!