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what does Luke 3:16 really mean?

Dan Perez

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It says John said , I indeed baptize with WATER // HYDOR ,

But one is coming , He shall Baptize // BAPTIZO is in the Future Tense , in the Active voice , in the Indicative Mood , means you better believe it

in the Singular , meaning it will happen only on time .

The Holy // HAGIOS is in the Dative Case , in the Singular , in the Neuter , meaning Male and Female .

And he will shall BAPTIZO with HOLY SPIRIT

And He will burn WITH FIRE // PYR

Is Luke speaking to those under the the NEW COVENANT ??

To those under the OLD COVENANT ??

To the Body of Christ ??

Maybe to those in the Great Tribulation ??

dan p
 
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Stephen3141

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You are reading more into the grammar, than is there.

The indicative, only addresses what WILL happen. This is in opposition
to the interpretation that "it might happen", or "it may happen".

The singular deals with the one doing the baptizing, and does not
address how many times he will baptize.

John is speaking mainly to a Jewish crowd. But the grammar does not
address whether this will happen under the Old Covenant, or the New Covenant.

Note that in the case of John baptizing, and Jesus baptizing, the people being
baptized are "you-all". John seems to be saying that the people HE is baptizing
for the forgiveness of sins, will be the same ones whom the Christ will baptize
with the Holy Spirit, and fire.
 
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Diamond72

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Is Luke speaking to those under the the NEW COVENANT ??

To those under the OLD COVENANT ??
We need both water and fire. We are to live free from sin to the best of our ability. We are to be transformed.

John the Baptist's message in Luke 3:16 is seen as a prophetic announcement of the coming New Covenant. He contrasts his own baptism with water with the greater baptism that Jesus would bring—with the Holy Spirit and fire. This signifies the transformative and purifying work of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

  • Water: Baptism with water symbolizes purification, repentance, and the washing away of sins. It's a significant practice in Christianity, representing the believer's identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
  • Fire: Fire often symbolizes the Holy Spirit's purifying and transformative power. When John the Baptist speaks of Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and fire (Luke 3:16), it points to the inner work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying and empowering believers.
 
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The Liturgist

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We need both water and fire. We are to live free from sin to the best of our ability. We are to be transformed.

John the Baptist's message in Luke 3:16 is seen as a prophetic announcement of the coming New Covenant. He contrasts his own baptism with water with the greater baptism that Jesus would bring—with the Holy Spirit and fire. This signifies the transformative and purifying work of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant.

  • Water: Baptism with water symbolizes purification, repentance, and the washing away of sins. It's a significant practice in Christianity, representing the believer's identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
  • Fire: Fire often symbolizes the Holy Spirit's purifying and transformative power. When John the Baptist speaks of Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and fire (Luke 3:16), it points to the inner work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying and empowering believers.

In traditional theology, we tend to regard the sacrament of Holy Baptism as actually regenerative (including traditional Methodists, although I would note it is possible that John Wesley had a view of baptism which clashed with his view of the Eucharist, in that the baptismal liturgy in the abbreviated version of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer he compiled for the Methodists in North America appears to de-emphasize baptismal regeneration).

But it is clear Wesley was not a Zwinglian, and indeed he was one of the first to stress the importance of receiving Holy Communion at least once per week. He also sought to revive the Patristic practice of fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays (which remained the norm in the Eastern Orthodox Church*).

At any rate, Wesley did teach infant baptism, and as my friend @Ain't Zwinglian can attest, usually Zwinglianism does not stop at a symbolic interpretation of the sacraments but proceeds towards full Credobaptism, although if I recall Zwingli himself was not a credobaptist. But I regard his military expedition that ended his life as improper conduct for the leader of a Christian church, as he had become the leader of the church in Zurich, and thus a great tragedy in that his military campaign not only ended his life but that of several others.

*Wesley was probably secretly consecrated a bishop by the Greek Orthodox Erasmus of Arcadia in 1763, since he appears to have admitted as much, and much of what Wesley taught aligns with Orthodoxy. I was originally baptized in the United Methodist Church before taking a segue through the United Church of Christ (I felt drawn to efforts, which were unsuccessful, to reform it and restore it on a confessional basis, rejecting the liberal theology that took over, but this was quixotic, since UCC congregations can leave, and most of the conservative ones did, whereas other even more liberal congregations like the “Cathedral of Hope” in Dallas joined); I attended a Lutheran parochial school but never heard that they believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but I always believed in this, even if it was perhaps not what I was supposed to believe. This was partially connected to my experience of receiving Holy Communion.
 
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Diamond72

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Wesley did teach infant baptism
Wesley's claim to fame was his teaching on being Holy before God.. Washed, cleansed and sanctified. A tradition more outside of the Methodist church than inside.

The book of Common Prayer shows infant baptism as more of a confirmation that everyone would raise the child as a Christian. Then when they are of age they join the church and confirm that they have made a decision to become a Christian. The same as the Baptists only they reverse baptism and confirmation are reversed.
 
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The Liturgist

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The book of Common Prayer shows infant baptism as more of a confirmation that everyone would raise the child as a Christian. Then when they are of age they join the church and confirm that they have made a decision to become a Christian. The same as the Baptists only they reverse baptism and confirmation are reversed.

Indeed. Adolescent confirmation is a legacy of a change that occurred in the Western Rite liturgy, wherein confirmation began to be linked to catechesis and the practice of giving the Eucharist to infants after confirming them immediately following baptism, which remains the norm in the East, was discontinued, as it became normal for youths in the West to be confirmed not by their parish priest but by a bishop. This change predated the schism between Anglicanism and the RCC, but in Anglicanism and Lutheranism the result was Confirmation taking on a more catechetical than sacramental character. I am a proponent of the restoration of Chrismation and its integration into the Baptism liturgies of Western churches as the experience of the Orthodox with this sacrament is extremely positive, particularly as a means of getting rid of demonic oppression in the case of people who have apostasized.
 
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The Liturgist

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Wesley's claim to fame was his teaching on being Holy before God.. Washed, cleansed and sanctified. A tradition more outside of the Methodist church than inside.

Specifically, entire sanctification, which was his attempt to translate the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis, which other Protestants including Luther and, surprisingly, Calvin, had also been interested in.. In the West the idea of Theosis in salvation had been displaced by the idea of the Beatifici Vision, but Theosis is a more active kind of glorification.

Unfortunately, you are correct that much of the Methodist church dropped the ball when it came to John Wesley’s teachings, both with regards to Entire Sanctification and the weekly celebration of Holy Communion; additionally it was also the desire of Wesley that the Methodist churches in North America should pray the Great Litany every Wednesday and Friday as part of the Fast, and I don’t know of any that do that (but Epworth Methodist Church in Boise, Idaho has evening prayer on Thursday, and there are a few other Methodist churches using a liturgy closer to the Anglican liturgy beloved by John Wesley).

Also, Wesley was one of the first Anglicans to advocate for weekly celebration and partaking of the Eucharist, anticipating the start of the Anglo-Catholic Oxford Movement of Edward Pusey, John Henry Newman, who later became a Roman Catholic cardinal, and others, by a century. During Wesley’s lifetime it was unusual for most Anglican parishes to celebrate Holy Communion weekly and even more unusual for people to partake of it weekly, other than clergy (indeed, the 18th century was a low point in terms of frequency of communion around the world; John Wesley’s only contemporaries I am aware of in this respect were the Kollyvades Brothers in the Greek Orthodox Church, who were connected with Mount Athos and the Hesychasts, and who advocated for laity in parishes to receive communion and avail themselves of reconciliation at every possible opportunity.*

*I should stress that my knowledge of such movements is limited to the Kollyvades Brothers and the Methodists; I would not be surprised to find high frequency communion existed in some of the Lutheran Orthodox countries contemporary with Wesley, before the onset of Pietism, Rationalism and Crypto-Calvinism, the trifecta that wreaked havoc in the Lutheran churches in Europe in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and perhaps among the Moravians, notwithstanding the strange pietism of Count Zinzendorf, who was hosting them on his estate in Germany, providing them a haven but introducing his own doctrine some of which is problematic and was recognized by Wesley as such I think when Wesley was assisting a colony of Moravians in North America, although this did not preclude his Aldersgate experience in a Moravian chapel a few years later.
 
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Diamond72

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I should stress that my knowledge of such movements is limited to the Kollyvades Brothers and the Methodists
It's interesting to note that similar movements for frequent Communion were present among the Kollyvades Brothers in the Greek Orthodox Church. Your observations about the impact of Pietism, Rationalism, and Crypto-Calvinism on Lutheran churches, as well as the unique position of the Moravians, highlight the diverse landscape of Christian practice during that period.
 
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T.i.m.o.t.h.y.

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It says John said , I indeed baptize with WATER // HYDOR ,

But one is coming , He shall Baptize // BAPTIZO is in the Future Tense , in the Active voice , in the Indicative Mood , means you better believe it

in the Singular , meaning it will happen only on time .

The Holy // HAGIOS is in the Dative Case , in the Singular , in the Neuter , meaning Male and Female .

And he will shall BAPTIZO with HOLY SPIRIT

And He will burn WITH FIRE // PYR

Is Luke speaking to those under the the NEW COVENANT ??

To those under the OLD COVENANT ??

To the Body of Christ ??

Maybe to those in the Great Tribulation ??

dan p
The baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire was promised to those in Jesus lifetime but not possible to happen until after Jesus was glorified. So the first to receive were the 12 disciples on the Day of Pentecost. Likely every person that Jesus had preached to about it, including the woman at the well, would also have received.

Just as water baptism is for everyone saved, the Holy Spirit and fire is also for everyone saved. It's for all of the BoC.

During the Tribulation the saints of those 7 years need all of the promises of God most of all.
 
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concretecamper

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Let's see what the Church has taught from the beginning instead of listening to some novice with a Greek lexicon starter kit.



John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. - Luke 3:16

What happened in the case of our Master’s body also happens in the case of your own. Although John appeared to be holding his body by the head, it was the divine Word that led his body down into the streams of Jordan and baptized him. The Master’s body was baptized by the Word, by the voice of his Father from heaven which said, “This is my beloved Son,” and by the manifestation of the Holy Spirit which descended upon him. This also happens in the case of your body. The baptism is given in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore John the Baptist told us, for our instruction, that man does not baptize us but God: “There comes after me one who is mightier than I, and I am not worthy to loose the strap of his sandal. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” For this reason, when the priest is baptizing he does not say, “I baptize soandso,” but “Soandso is baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” In this way he shows that it is not he who baptizes but those whose names have been invoked, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

- John Chrysostom
 
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linux.poet

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MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Traditional Theology to Christian Scriptures.

A small cleanup was done to remove some posts that dealt more with Traditional Theology or were violating that SOP.

This thread is being reopened.​

MOD HAT OFF

 
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Dan Perez

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You are reading more into the grammar, than is there.

The indicative, only addresses what WILL happen. This is in opposition
to the interpretation that "it might happen", or "it may happen".

The singular deals with the one doing the baptizing, and does not
address how many times he will baptize.

John is speaking mainly to a Jewish crowd. But the grammar does not
address whether this will happen under the Old Covenant, or the New Covenant.

Note that in the case of John baptizing, and Jesus baptizing, the people being
baptized are "you-all". John seems to be saying that the people HE is baptizing
for the forgiveness of sins, will be the same ones whom the Christ will baptize
with the Holy Spirit, and fire.
And when I wrote what the INDICATIVE MOOD means , I wrote from A MANUEL GRAMMER OF THE GREEK

NEW ESTAMENT by DANA AND MANTEY and they say , that the INDICATIVE MOOD means IT IS THE MOOD OF CERTAINTY ,

and I wrote you better believe it .

They also say , IT is the PRIMARILY the mood of UNQALIFIED assertion OR simple question of FACT , Page 168 .and there is

a lot more .!! Just asking , do you believe in WATER BAPTISM for today ??

dan p
 
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