What does Carter think he is doing?

[GeratTzedek]

I used to like Jimmy Carter. But he must really be losing it. Why would he meet with Hamas when the Administration asked him not to? Why does he foolishly think he will accomplish anything? Does he even realize that Hamas said nothing to him that they haven't said before? Doesn't he GET that this group of terrorists will never ever ever EVER recognize a Jewish state? What an embarassment to Baptists and to America.

 

[Futuwwa]

Well, some of us haven't given up hope on avoiding the Clash of Cultures. While I doubt he will accomplish very much, he deserves k'dos for trying

 

[Secundulus]

Hamas demonstrated Carter's naivete within hours of his announcement of peace by publicly vowing not to recognize Israel. Hamas played Carter for a fool.

While some of the Muslims here have given me hope that a final showdown is not inevitable, talking to groups like Hamas only weakens the position of those with whom we might work something out.

 

[JohnLocke]

What is Carter doing?

In reality, something George Bush was ideally placed to do. I think it is one of the more tragic mistakes of his presidency. There was the opportunity where a reasonably fair and free election was held in Palestine and rather than embracing or at least recognize the people's democratic choice, Bush decided to rant about terrorism and dictate foreign policy to a new state.

In my opinion, Bush had the opportunity to do a "Nixon goes to China" and he chose not to. He had the opportunity to conclusively demonstrate that democracy was a viable method for the Palestinians to gain redress of their grievances, and instead he chose to maintain his "tough on terror" position.

As far as the "official recognition thing goes" please. For the longest time the U.S. considered Taiwan "China." Israel has some how managed to survive while being official recognized by no other Islamic power other than Egypt.

As far as going when the Administration said no, well them's the breaks. While Constitutionally I would like to protect the power of the Presidency to conduct foreign affairs, it's a freaking free country.

Peace

 

[Nathan45]

I used to like Jimmy Carter. But he must really be losing it. Why would he meet with Hamas when the Administration asked him not to?

If he decides not to meet with hamas after the administration told him not to publicly, he'd look like an idiot and it would make things worse. All we have here is the administration undercutting him before he even starts.

Why does he foolishly think he will accomplish anything?

I honestly don't think he'd accomplish anything, but can it really hurt to try? I don't understand this mentality that dialogue is a bad thing. At least we can say afterwards "We attempted reasoning with hamas", before taking a harder line.

 

[Rasta]

I used to like Jimmy Carter. But he must really be losing it. Why would he meet with Hamas when the Administration asked him not to? Why does he foolishly think he will accomplish anything? Does he even realize that Hamas said nothing to him that they haven't said before? Doesn't he GET that this group of terrorists will never ever ever EVER recognize a Jewish state? What an embarassment to Baptists and to America.

Yeah, I agree. A person reaching an olive branch to a group that thinks they are divinely ordered to occupy land is foolish. (sarcasm)

*head slap icon*

What do you think the best way to solve the dillema is?

 

[GeratTzedek]

What is Carter doing?

In reality, something George Bush was ideally placed to do. I think it is one of the more tragic mistakes of his presidency. There was the opportunity where a reasonably fair and free election was held in Palestine and rather than embracing or at least recognize the people's democratic choice, Bush decided to rant about terrorism and dictate foreign policy to a new state.

In my opinion, Bush had the opportunity to do a "Nixon goes to China" and he chose not to. He had the opportunity to conclusively demonstrate that democracy was a viable method for the Palestinians to gain redress of their grievances, and instead he chose to maintain his "tough on terror" position.

As far as the "official recognition thing goes" please. For the longest time the U.S. considered Taiwan "China." Israel has some how managed to survive while being official recognized by no other Islamic power other than Egypt.

As far as going when the Administration said no, well them's the breaks. While Constitutionally I would like to protect the power of the Presidency to conduct foreign affairs, it's a freaking free country.

Peace

So you think that simply because a group is democratically elected, that there is no concern? Do you realize Hitler was elected? Whether Hamas was democratically elected or not, they are a terrorist group which targets innocents and who are hell-bent on the irradication of the Jewish state. They will NEVER NEVER NEVER recognize Israel. They have stated such many times. Why is it that normally intelligent people refuse to listen?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Yeah, I agree. A person reaching an olive branch to a group that thinks they are divinely ordered to occupy land is foolish. (sarcasm)

*head slap icon*

What do you think the best way to solve the dillema is?

In my not so humble opinion, we should deal with things according to the actions of people. It is a given that Israel was, is, and will be. I am not opposed to all wars, and I am not opposed to capital punishment. If an individual targets an innocent person for death, nothing short of Capital Punishment is good enough in my book. Throwing these terrorists in jail, only to release them later in exchange for this or that, is just self-destructive for Israel. Organizations, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, which similarly target innocents are terrorist organizations, the "Amalek" of this age. They need to be utterly and completely destroyed, not danced with. Didn't we learn in WWII that appeasing Hitler doesn't work? With some people, peace cannot be made, and time should not be wasted in the process. Anyone connected with Hamas in any way, IMHO, should be killed, their homes destroyed, everything they own demolished, fields, livestock, EVERYTHING -- no profit should be taken from such evil.

 

[dlamberth]

I used to like Jimmy Carter. But he must really be losing it. Why would he meet with Hamas when the Administration asked him not to? Why does he foolishly think he will accomplish anything? Does he even realize that Hamas said nothing to him that they haven't said before? Doesn't he GET that this group of terrorists will never ever ever EVER recognize a Jewish state? What an embarassment to Baptists and to America.

Jimmy Carter it trying to do what no one else is....trying to find a way towards peace in the middle-east. He may not be successful, but who knows, he just might be. And what a blessing that would for all parties if he is successful. The course everyone is on right now in the Middle-East clearly is not working. There has to be a better way. I don't see anything lost in trying to find a different and better way in the Middle-East.

I don't understand why so many are on Carter's case about this. What he is doing is a very Christ like gesture and I admire him for it. I’m not understanding why the idea of talking to ones enemy is perceived to be a bad thing? The only answer I can think of is that people want war and thus hate anything thing that might get into the way of war.

.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I honestly don't think he'd accomplish anything, but can it really hurt to try? I don't understand this mentality that dialogue is a bad thing. At least we can say afterwards "We attempted reasoning with hamas", before taking a harder line.

Yes, it DOES hurt to "try" because it 1. wastes time and 2. send the message that we will negotiate with terrorists, thus increasing the power and scale of terrorism.

G-d is clear how to deal with Amalek.

 

[dlamberth]

Hamas demonstrated Carter's naivete within hours of his announcement of peace by publicly vowing not to recognize Israel. Hamas played Carter for a fool.

Usually peace takes time to happen. As we see even in some of the postings here in this thread, Peace is often very hard to find. Give it a chance to work. It may take many diplomatic meetings with Hamas before a break through happens. Maybe it won't happen. Diplomacy takes time. And ego's on both side need to be worked through.

.

 

[JohnLocke]

So you think that simply because a group is democratically elected, that there is no concern? Do you realize Hitler was elected? Whether Hamas was democratically elected or not, they are a terrorist group which targets innocents and who are hell-bent on the irradication of the Jewish state. They will NEVER NEVER NEVER recognize Israel. They have stated such many times. Why is it that normally intelligent people refuse to listen?

In a word, No.

Despite being democratically elected I have grave concerns about many world leaders. For a prominent example, take Vladimir Putin who's activities gave rise to such "quaint" terms as "authoritarian democracy."

There is a grave concern over Hamas, I do not dismiss that. And actually, I'm not sure that Hitler was really elected, as I recall it was more that the legislature appointed him Chancellor but the point is the same.

As for normally intelligent people "not listening" what I am proposing is that by dealing with a democratically elected Hamas, we can reinforce democracy in that area of the world, demonstrate the efficacy of non-violent, non-terroristic approaches, etc. What I get in return is "Hamas is a terrorist group, so that's the end of it." I'm not sure how uncutting our commitment and the perception of our commitment to democracy by refusing the recognize Hamas advances any of our interests, or those who want a 2-state solution to the Israel/Palestine issue. So do enlighten me how this refusal advances our interests.

The fact is that whatever else may be said of Hamas, for some segments of the Palestinian population they have provided a great deal of what might otherwise be considered governmental services, and so they're going to be popular and likely to be represented in any democratic government. So how do you propose we deal with that?

Or should we wait until all of the political parties in Palestine convert into Western analogs before engaging them?

 

[dlamberth]

They will NEVER NEVER NEVER recognize Israel. They have stated such many times. Why is it that normally intelligent people refuse to listen?

As a normal intelligent person, I don't see this as reason enough NOT to try to find a way towards peace with Hamas.

I'm sitting on the other side of the stick, we all know that change happens. Sometimes it happens very slowly and in tiny increments. But change does happen. I’ve leaned never to say NEVER. I've also learned that talking to ones enemies can cause change towards the better. At this early point, it's way too early to say, but Carter just may be the instrument that begins the change in the attitude that Hamas has towards Israel.

The other option presented is that no one does anything and with that we are assured continual war for a very long time to come.

.

 

[GeratTzedek]

As a normal intelligent person, I don't see this as reason enough NOT to try to find a way towards peace with Hamas.

Uh, because intelligent people do not continue to waste time with "solutions" shown not to work.

For example, in my classroom, I had an autistic child that yelled often throughout the day as an attention getting behavior. The first solution I tried was a reminder of the rule "inside voices." It didn't work -- so I intelligently realized I needed to try something else. The second solution was time out, thinking that mere words were not getting the message across. It also didn't work. If I were unintelligent, I would have kept giving time out and telling him, "We don't yell, we use inside voices." Instead, I looked at WHY, and what his reward was. Talking to him, and making him sit in time out essentially gave him ATTENTION, which was the purpose of the behavior -- that's why these solutions had actually made the yelling more frequent. So I and my assistants began a new solution, which was to completely ignore the yelling. It got MUCH WORSE... before it stopped completely. He no longer yells (at least not in MY room!) It was a good thing I didn't keep spinning my wheels with the conventional approach.

The conventional approach to avoiding international conflict, or conflict between two groups, is negotiation. This has been tried UNSUCCESSFULLY with Hamas. In fact, if you look back over the statistics, each time there is an accord or cease fire or agreement nearing peace, THAT is PRECISELY the time that the bombings against Israel and Jews increase. It is not about "never say never." It is about being PRACTICLE, and taking NOTE of the effects of certain policies. Just as talking and time out made the yelling problem worse, negotiations with Hamas and other terrorist groups make bombing worse. SO DITCH IT. Try something ELSE.

That is what intelligent people do.

The other option presented is that no one does anything and with that we are assured continual war for a very long time to come.

Actually, most wars are NOT continual. Usually they are fought until one side wins and the other loses. You can pick which side you want to win, but what is destructive is to engage in war activities without winning as a goal, because that IS when killing goes on and on and on.

So my advice to Israel is this: forget negotiations. Go all out and destroy Hamas, and ignore if others tell you to the contrary.

When Israel has done this, when the Amelakites are once again utterly destroyed, then and only then will there be anything resembling peace.

 

[Rasta]

In my not so humble opinion, we should deal with things according to the actions of people.

Including Jews right?

It is a given that Israel was, is, and will be.

It's also a given that Isreal wasn't, and won't be.

I am not opposed to all wars, and I am not opposed to capital punishment. If an individual targets an innocent person for death, nothing short of Capital Punishment is good enough in my book.

Which applies to Isreali bombs or bullets that might happen to kill innocents right?

Throwing these terrorists in jail, only to release them later in exchange for this or that, is just self-destructive for Israel.

Is Isreal the be all, end all? Do you ever consider what is best for Palistine?

Organizations, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, which similarly target innocents are terrorist organizations, the "Amalek" of this age. They need to be utterly and completely destroyed, not danced with.

This sentence sickens me. You are a grown woman yes? How can you unterly destroy a people without targeting innocents? Hypocritical much?

Didn't we learn in WWII that appeasing Hitler doesn't work?

You know that Palestine is not Hitler right? We learned that genocide was a bad thing.

With some people, peace cannot be made, and time should not be wasted in the process.

Well, your people have traditionaly done a wonderful job solving this. . . . . (sarcasm) Or what, you think god's chosen people need help?

Why has Isreal been unsuccessful at stoping these modern "Amaleks"?

Anyone connected with Hamas in any way, IMHO, should be killed, their homes destroyed, everything they own demolished, fields, livestock, EVERYTHING -- no profit should be taken from such evil.

For you to claim such, I would say you are equally evil. Nasty thoughts. Wow. Really wow!

You are a disgusting person.

 

[GeratTzedek]

JohnLocke:

I appreciate what you are saying. It is not without merit. Generally speaking, it IS a sensible policy to support democratic governments despite their imperfections. And yes, indeed! Hamas not only has provided social services to Palestinians, but has done a much better job of it than the Palestinian Authority, which is notoriously corrupt. I'm sure there were people who voted for Hamas for that reason.

The fact remains, however, that there is a line which should not be crossed. It would not only have been wrong to support Hitler and the Nazi state of Germany, but it was downright FOOLISH when appeasement policies were pursued. The only solution to Nazism was utter victory over the Third Reich and the death of Hitler. Only THEN were the German people in a state where they could be rehabilitated.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Rasta:

Notice I use the word TARGETS civilians, and you use the expression "just happen to hit civilians." The two are a LONG ways from being morally equivilent. Thus, those who "just happen to hit civilians" SHOULD be dealt with far differently than those who TARGET civilians.

Any Jew that deliberately targets a Palestinian innocent is just as guilty, and should be killed.

The thing is, while that happens regarding individuals, it is simply not a policy of the state of Israel to use targetting of civilians as a methodology. Thus, there is no moral equivilence of the actions of Israel and the actions of Hamas.

And Rasta, the fact that you cannot seem to discern the difference between casualties and targets is WHY I cannot carry on a rational discussion with you over this. My answer is for others reading.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Rasta:

And for you to support policies that lead to killings going on forever, you think you are better than I? I support WINNING because it will bring peace. Sometimes, war CAN be the answer.

 

[randomman]

I used to like Jimmy Carter. But he must really be losing it. Why would he meet with Hamas when the Administration asked him not to? Why does he foolishly think he will accomplish anything? Does he even realize that Hamas said nothing to him that they haven't said before? Doesn't he GET that this group of terrorists will never ever ever EVER recognize a Jewish state? What an embarassment to Baptists and to America.

I am not a terrorist and I do not approve of the state of israel. it was illegaly founded.

 

[Futuwwa]

Rasta:

And for you to support policies that lead to killings going on forever, you think you are better than I? I support WINNING because it will bring peace. Sometimes, war CAN be the answer.

As long as you don't create new enemies in the process. Israel's cause may be just, but it is notorious for administering collective punishment on the Palestinians for the actions of terrorists.