What doctrines are non-negotiable?

yeshuasavedme · Jun 22, 2013

Scott4Him said:
Obviously Christians do not all agree on every nuisance of Scripture. There are some doctrines (salvation by grace through faith and not of works Eph 2:8-9) that I see as non-negotiable.

Others (Jesus clearly taught a post-tribualtion rapture in Matthew 24) I view as important but not worth breaking fellowship over.

All Scripture is God breathed, so it's all important.

What doctrines do you view add non negotiable? It doesn't have to be an exhaustive list, my post certainly isn't

The Person [God in flesh] and work [salvation by His blood of Atonement] of Christ.

PaladinValer · Jun 23, 2013

MenWithoutHate said:
Glad that you took my post the right way

I took it the first way because I don't understand the second. How can a belief be non-negotiable for yourself?

Again, that is not the topic. What did the OP ask?

ebia · Jun 23, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
It's always amusing to me how it's always everyone else who has unscriptural beliefs.

-CryptoLutheran

But of course.
I understand scripture.
You interpret scripture
He ignores scripture.

hedrick · Jun 23, 2013

QueSi said:
Shouldn't the most basic essential doctrine be to love God above all and our brothers as ourselves?

Yes. I've been thinking about that. What if you asked Jesus and Paul the original question? You've quoted one place. Jesus also speaks of the necessity of forgiveness, repentance, and in his parables about judgement, doing things to make a different to other people. Paul speaks of the necessity to believe in Jesus' resurrection, of living in the light of the cross, of faith, and several other things.

Note that many of the things that they think define a Christian are not doctrines, but attitudes, disciplines, practices.

This is not an attack on Nicea. The Church did need to respond to Arius. But that doesn't mean that the Nicean Creed is what the Jesus or his first follows would think defines Christianity.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2013

hedrick said:
Yes. I've been thinking about that. What if you asked Jesus and Paul the original question? You've quoted one place. Jesus also speaks of the necessity of forgiveness, repentance, and in his parables about judgement, doing things to make a different to other people. Paul speaks of the necessity to believe in Jesus' resurrection, of living in the light of the cross, of faith, and several other things.

Note that many of the things that they think define a Christian are not doctrines, but attitudes, disciplines, practices.

"Attitudes, disciplines, practices" is specifically what a "doctrine" is.

QueSi · Jun 23, 2013

RDKirk said:
"Attitudes, disciplines, practices" is specifically what a "doctrine" is.

From M-W:
a : something that is taught
b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma
c : a principle of law established through past decisions
d : a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations
e : a military principle or set of strategies

The main thing that Jesus taught, most important thing he said we could know, greatest of all laws was to love God above all and our neighbors as ourselves...he taught it many times.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2013

QueSi said:
The main thing that Jesus taught, most important thing he said we could know, greatest of all laws was to love God above all and our neighbors as ourselves...he taught it many times.

If that is the only non-negotiable doctrine, that makes Judaism and Islam both Christian. Certainly Bahai.

QueSi · Jun 23, 2013

RDKirk said:
If that is the only non-negotiable doctrine, that makes Judaism and Islam both Christian. Certainly Bahai.

I will agree that they all have the same main doctrine, as is present in most all religions. Do you not accept that as the greatest of all laws to be followed?

Albion · Jun 23, 2013

RDKirk said:
If that is the only non-negotiable doctrine, that makes Judaism and Islam both Christian. Certainly Bahai.

Very true.

Albion · Jun 23, 2013

QueSi said:
Shouldn't the most basic essential doctrine be to love God above all and our brothers as ourselves?

Actually, no. That is NOT the most essential doctrine.

That Jesus died in order to provide us an escape from the cvonsequences of our sin is the most essential doctrine.

Now, which other of the world's great religions have that as its cardinal doctrine? Hmmmmm.

hedrick · Jun 23, 2013

RDKirk said:
If that is the only non-negotiable doctrine, that makes Judaism and Islam both Christian. Certainly Bahai.

Let's say they overlap. However there are items that I'd say are treated as essential in the NT that I doubt Jews and Muslims would accept:

That includes both beliefs, e.g. that Christ was raised on the third day (which Paul explicitly defines as essential), and practices, such as praying in Jesus' name, having faith in him, and living in the light of the cross.

I am not talking here about whether non-Christians can be saved, but about the definition of Christian.

I believe it's pretty common for churches to accept as members anyone who professes faith in Christ and accepts him as Lord. You can, of course, say that accepting Christ as Lord means accepting Nicea, Chalcedon, and the Westminster Confession, but I don't think that's what most of us mean.

MamaZ · Jun 23, 2013

The most important is Ye must be Born again to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

MamaZ · Jun 23, 2013

Now only those who know Jesus can be born again.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2013

hedrick said:
Let's say they overlap. However there are items that I'd say are treated as essential in the NT that I doubt Jews and Muslims would accept:

That includes both beliefs, e.g. that Christ was raised on the third day (which Paul explicitly defines as essential), and practices, such as praying in Jesus' name, having faith in him, and living in the light of the cross.

I am not talking here about whether non-Christians can be saved, but about the definition of Christian.

And I think that is the point of the OP: The non-negotiable attributes that define "Christian."

Yes, there is some overlap because there are also some non-negotiables that are foundational.

One, for instance, would be a belief in God the Father--that's essential.

There might be many people who believe in a a "Jesus" as only a moral guide--like Buddha or Confucius. Or that Jesus was merely a prophet? That's not Christianity.

If we believe that the death of Christ on the cross is necessary for atonement, then there are other foundations to that concept that become non-negotiable.

Would we consider "Christian" a believe that Jesus never existed as a material being, but was always only a ghost pretending to be material? What happens to belief in atonement if we take that course? So we have to lay as a non-negotiable plank of Christianity the fact that Jesus was a material being.

What if we believe, as Muslims do, that Jesus did not die on the cross? What does that do for atonement? So His death on the cross must become a non-negotiable for Christianity.

Standing Up · Jun 23, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
The Person [God in flesh] and work [salvation by His blood of Atonement] of Christ.

On essentials:

We would agree on the first part, the who do you say I am? God-in-flesh (Son of God). To say otherwise is antichrist (1 John).

As to the second, what He did, that would begin to complicate things, no? NT is believe and confess He is Son of God. But what He did? Is that essential? The 3 days/nights?

QueSi · Jun 23, 2013

Albion said:
Actually, no. That is NOT the most essential doctrine.

That Jesus died in order to provide us an escape from the cvonsequences of our sin is the most essential doctrine.

Now, which other of the world's great religions have that as its cardinal doctrine? Hmmmmm.

Why do you think Jesus taught the golden rule more than that his death would cleanse us of sins if the latter was more important?

Christianity is the only major religion that I'm aware of that teaches that.

Cappadocious · Jun 23, 2013

QueSi said:
I never understood why this didn't include any of the roughly 32 years of his life including the most important parts of the bible, being the ~4 years that he taught us the lessons that we are to follow.

Because the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed states the orthodox doctrines regarding certain disputed things, not all things.

pshun2404 said:
I like these but I would question Amillennialism (since it was not a view considered until after the church assumed political authority)

That's not accurate, as St. Justin Martyr, one of the earliest to espouse a form of millennialism in the 2nd Century, affirmed that many of his contemporaries disagreed, and that their tradition was valid. The Christian Church wasn't made the state religion of the empire until 380 AD.

You have to be careful about where you get your history.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2013

QueSi said:
Why do you think Jesus taught the golden rule more than that his death would cleanse us of sins if the latter was more important?

No, He spoke more of His death than "the golden rule."

Christianity is the only major religion that I'm aware of that teaches that.

Which is why it would be a non-negotiable that specifically defines Christianity.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2013

Cappadocious said:
Because the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed states the orthodox doctrines regarding certain disputed things, not all things.

Yes. Some things are disputable, some things are not.

That's not accurate, as St. Justin Martyr, one of the earliest to espouse a form of millennialism in the 2nd Century, affirmed that many of his contemporaries disagreed, and that their tradition was valid.

Some things are disputable, some things are not.

The Christian Church wasn't made the state religion of the empire until 380 AD.

At that point, there was introduced the sword of the king to enforce orthodoxy in all things...according to what the king approved.

QueSi · Jun 23, 2013

RDKirk said:
No, He spoke more of His death than "the golden rule."

Which is why it would be a non-negotiable that specifically defines Christianity.

I disagree, after reading the gospels many times over I'm sure he talked more about the golden rule than his death during the bulk of his teachings.

What doctrines are non-negotiable?

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