What do you want out of this?

Hi Philis,

Then why can it not be true that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Why can it not be true that God's wrath is a physical substance that can be stored in and poured out of seven bowls?

miamited said:

Hi Philis,

Then why can it not be true that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

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It could be true. What are you getting at?

hi Philis,

Why can't it be true? According to you it isn't.

God bless you.
In Christ, ted

Philis what is your faith based belief when it comes to origins?

miamited said:

hi Philis,

Why can't it be true? According to you it isn't.

God bless you.
In Christ, ted

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I just said it can be true. My interpretation of the Genesis account doesn't preclude a young earth or a 6 day creation.

jinx25 said:

Philis what is your faith based belief when it comes to origins?

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When it comes to theology I like to take it in the cultural context. That view allows for any age of the earth and any process of creation God would choose to use.

When it comes to the actual age of the earth and the process for making people, I don't know. I'm not familiar with science and the way that I see it the bible is true either way.

Philis said:

I just said it can be true. My interpretation of the Genesis account doesn't preclude a young earth or a 6 day creation.

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Historically there has actually been a lot of debate regarding whether or not 'day' in Genesis means a 24 hour period. That's the obvious meaning but there have been some fairly interesting alternative views suggested down through the centuries. Understanding Genesis isn't all that difficult unless you start breaking down the controversies or splitting hairs over semantics.

The message seems clear as day to me, no pun intended. God has been involved with humanity from the beginning and will be until the end of the age. I have long thought it unhealthy to spend too much time on the first few chapters, did you know that it has more to say about Jacob then anyone else?

When your feeling up to it I would suggest trying to do an exposition. Don't worry about the things that are still out of your reach, just dig into the text a little. It's been my experience if you do that an interesting and deeply personal truth will come into view. Whenever you study the Bible just bear in mind, what's important is getting closer to God. What you usually find is that God has been trying reach you a lot harder then you have been trying to reach him.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I am posting this here because it applies here, but I have also posted this on the 'Can we agree' thread.

hi Philis,

Well, I think by now the answer would seem to be a clear 'no'. I hope that you don't misunderstand my intention and knowledge of the Scriptures. Certianly there are contained within the Scriptures between the, "Let there be..." to "Now the dwelling of men is with God..." allegory, simile and metaphor. After all, Jesus even told his disciples that there was a purpose in his speaking to Israel in parables. However, that was also fulfillment of a prophecy in which we were told that the Messiah would speak to the people in parables. Because God has already made it abundantly clear to Israel what He expected, Jesus then came to them and spoke in parables so that still most of them, certainly those who couldn't believe or accept the plain truth, would still not understand. He tells his disciples that that was the very reason he spoke to them in parables.

However, just because we agree that the Scriptures do use allegory, simile, metaphor and parable doesn't mean that everything spoken is of that nature. Most of, some greater than 90%, of God's word, His written revelation to mankind is true and factual. Now, everyone agrees, I'm sure if they've studied basic english, that a simile or metaphor is a linguistic tool that makes a point or truth known by using some word or phrase that is understood in it's similarity to the point or truth.

When the Scriptures say that 'they will rise up as on eagle's wings,' it is understood that we will be lifted up with similar equality to what is known as one of the most powerful animal forces that flies higher than any other bird in all of God's creation.

Now, dictionary.com defines allegory as: The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.

So, here's the question: What is the abstract idea, or the prinicple that is represented in God's narrative of the creation whereby He causes to be written that each day consisted of an evening and a morning? Let's agree that God did not intend for us to understand that the day was actually an evening and a morning, but that phrase represented an abstract idea or principle that He wanted to convey. What is that abstract idea or principle?

You see, I'm not willing to accept the argument that because in some other place God uses allegory, simile, metaphor or parable, that He must therefore be doing that in this place unless you can explain to me how such an allegory, simile, mataphor or parable applies to what He has caused to be written in this place.

I mean, yes, I can read Jesus' parables and see the underlying message of that parable and Jesus even explains a few of them for his disciples. Yes, I can read that we are lifted up as on the wings of eagles and clearly understand what picture and understanding that metaphor paints for the reader. But I don't see the allegorical or metaphorical meaning of the statement, "and there was evening and morning the first day." I can't find any record of such a literary device ever being used in all of mankinds writings.

I can find thousands of references in song and writing where someone might speak of the downtrodden and lonely being lifted up as on the wings of eagles, but I can't find any explanation by which I can understand this allegory or metaphor that says, 'and there was evening and morning the first day.'

Help me please. Show me any, any absolutely any literary use in any other written matter that has ever been penned in all the days of the world where someone used this allegory and explain what it means other than the description of a day. Just one. That's all I ask. If any of you are so set that this single phrase is obviously an allegory, then show me one single use of it in all of history.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I have had a go over on the Can we agree thread link.

Philis,
Are you going to change your mind?

ptomwebster said:

Philis,
Are you going to change your mind?

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Hi,

I haven't been around much the last few days so I'm not caught up on all of the posts yet.

When you ask if I'm going to change my mind, is there a certain topic you were thinking of?

Why I post here? Well I've been trying to post here in an attempt to share my understanding of the Bible when it comes to origins, it is my hope that when we come to understand each others position especially when it comes to this part of theology that we can see that it is not an argument between YEC and TE, or as I'll probably start using Evolutionary Creatonism, for both sides have the same truth claims barring age of the universe, that God has been and continues to be in control, that man is a special creature (that is a living being created by God) made in the Image of God, that man ultimately has failed at this and so sins, and that Christ is the true Image and all Christians are in him and no longer in Adam, these beliefs when it comes to origins are in opposition to the atheistic claims that none of this is true.

KTskater said:

I see much of what the OP talks about. It seems like very few people can be adults about this subject. I think the apparent condescension of some TE believers, and the apparent ignorance of science of some YEC believers leads to some of the conflicts. Very few people here are being loving to their brothers and sisters.
I'm here because I'm a believer, love the Bible, and I'm also a student of biological anthropology. Human evolution is something that I study very closely. I've held the bones of Ardipithecus ramidus, and Australopithecus afarensis, and Homo erectus in my hands.
I've also seen blind eyes healed after ten minutes of prayer. The evidence for both evolution and a theistic God who interacts with His creation are overwhelming to me. I like to find others who also share this background in science and faith, because I'm constantly under attack in my field for have faith. I'm also interested in what the other side has to say to justify certain scientific discoveries (aside from just ignoring them), and what my side has to say about some of the theological complications that come from a non-literal view of Genesis. I'm just learning, I suppose.

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Hi KTskater.

That's interesting that you say you're always under attack and yet you hold to evolution. What do they attack you about? Are they demanding you become an atheists, or perhaps a deist? Perhaps you're willingness to believe in miracles is what bothers them?

Also, just out of curiosity, do you believe the creation of the world to be a miracle? Or just the result of natural events? If the former, that may have implications on the usefulness of science in those areas. Same with the existence of human life. Was that brought about via a miracle of God, or just natural processes?

If possible, I'd be curious your take on this article as a scientists. It's not by a fellow scientist, but rather a theologian that deals with the issue of miracles—particularly how they would affect scientific investigation.
Methods of the Creator

Generally, when I come across real scientists I like to get their take on miracles as a starting point.

Philis said:

Hi,

I haven't been around much the last few days so I'm not caught up on all of the posts yet.

When you ask if I'm going to change my mind, is there a certain topic you were thinking of?

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Re-read YOUR OP! It was YOUR question and you can't remember what it was?

ptomwebster said:

Re-read YOUR OP! It was YOUR question and you can't remember what it was?

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So you want Philis to change her mind?

ptomwebster said:

Re-read YOUR OP! It was YOUR question and you can't remember what it was?

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The topic is; What do you hope to get out of this?

The OP contained my comments about what I hope to get out of this. Are you asking if I could change my mind on what I want to get out of this?

Or about my view of theology? My view of origins? My view of others? My view of God? My view of Christianity?

I try to answer every question asked of me, but I need to know what you're asking.