What do You Think about this?

Bulldog · Mar 1, 2004

Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Bulldog said:
Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom. WHat do you think of this?

I don't think I am understanding your question? OSAS in relation to asking for forgivenss for something before you die?

I believe we are all sinful, there is not a momment in our lives that goes by that we do not sin. Jesus (God) knows our hearts. He knows when we are earnestly seeking him and his will in our lives. He knows we are by nature sinners, for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He wants us to continually work on ourselves so that he can look in our faces and see the reflection of Jesus there. He asks that we continually strive to do this. But we are imperfect! We will make mistakes.

I do not believe you will die and go to Hell if you have accepted Salvation because you die before you have the chance to ask for forgiveness for your sin. There are many others that do not agree with the OSAS idea, and actually believe it or not just as some Christians do not believe in a rapture, or the Revelation. You will even find many opinions on the OSAS belief.

I truly belive in my heart that once you have accepted Jesus, and are fellowshiping with him, doing your best to follow his word. He never leaves you. Hence the word eternal. Just as a parent to a child whom makes mistakes. He cannot protect you if you make bad choices, but he never stops loving you and wants you to see things his way. Because his way is perfect ours is not.

Does that help?

FreakShiny · Mar 1, 2004

Bulldog said:
Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

So basically you are saying that we have the power to lose the salvation that God has given to us and we have accepted.

Wow. That's scary!

According to God's Word, all who are saved, are saved. Period. We all stumble. We all sin. God, however, is just, and sovereign, and gracious, and knows that we cannot handle salvation on our own. He knows that we are going to screw up. That's why He died for us.

Does this give us a license to go out and do whatever we want after being saved? No. We are to walk in communion with God and strive to be closer to Him. That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes, though. God knows what is in our hearts and God is in control. That in and of itself should put your mind at ease.

Bulldog · Mar 1, 2004

FreakShiny said:
So basically you are saying that we have the power to lose the salvation that God has given to us and we have accepted.

Wow. That's scary!

According to God's Word, all who are saved, are saved. Period. We all stumble. We all sin. God, however, is just, and sovereign, and gracious, and knows that we cannot handle salvation on our own. He knows that we are going to screw up. That's why He died for us.

Does this give us a license to go out and do whatever we want after being saved? No. We are to walk in communion with God and strive to be closer to Him. That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes, though. God knows what is in our hearts and God is in control. That in and of itself should put your mind at ease.

I believe in OSAS, but what about the verse that says that no sin can enter Heaven?

FreakShiny · Mar 1, 2004

Bulldog said:
I believe in OSAS, but what about the verse that says that no sin can enter Heaven?

Hmmm... don't think I have seen one. I know there are lots of verses that say that those who have not accepted Christ cannot enter Heaven... I'll look tonight and see if I can find anything similar to what your dad said. (I'm at work).

Phoebe · Mar 1, 2004

Bulldog said:
I believe in OSAS, but what about the verse that says that no sin can enter Heaven?

This might be how the idea of purgatory came about. That would then be a question for our friends in OBOB.

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Phoebe said:
This might be how the idea of purgatory came about. That would then be a question for our friends in OBOB.

Phoebe, where or what is the OBOB? I have seen this quite a bit..could you explain for a newbiee!

O'Factry · Mar 1, 2004

I believe that one can lose his salvation. Perhaps those people were never really saved in the first place. Semantics.

But how many good Chritians have cursed when an unexpected tragedy struck them dead? How many died with hatred in their hearts in the heat of battle or while being murdered? I cannot believe they are lost, unless there is scriptual evidence to that affect.

Lotar · Mar 1, 2004

Bulldog said:
Hello all,

My dad and I were talking at the dinner table about once-saved always saved, and he brought up an interesting theory. He said that if a person was to sin, and then die without asking for forgiveness, he would not be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.(and therefore would go to hell) He used the verse that says that no sin can enter God's Kingdom.

What do you think of this?

Here's a few things I've read on the subject.

Q. Can you lose your salvation and if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?

A. The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:12-19; 6:4-8, etc.). Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God's judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God's grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please."

By the same token, the LCMS affirms and treasures all of the wonderful passages in Scripture in which God promises that He will never forsake those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6, etc.). To those who are truly repentant and recognize their need for God's grace and forgiveness, such passages are powerful reminders of the true security that is ours through sincere and humble faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation.

Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's Word in a person's heart.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2647

Q. Recently in a conversation, an individual stated that if a believer dies with unconfessed known sin he or she loses salvation and spend eternity in hell. What is the LCMS position regarding this matter?

A. According to Scripture (and the teaching of the LCMS), the sole cause of damnation is lack of faith in Christ. If a person dies without faith in Christ, that person will be ******. If a person dies believing in Christ, that person will be saved--whether or not it was possible for that person to specifically "confess" every sin he or she was conscious of before dying (not to mention the confession of unknown sins, which it would be impossible to confess). To be sure, the stubborn refusal to confess one's sins may be a sign of unbelief, but it is always and only the unbelief itself--not the failure to confess--that damns, just as it is always and only faith in Christ--not confession of sins--that saves a person.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2651

Yitzchak · Mar 1, 2004

It seems to me that there is only one way in which a sinner will ever enter heaven. That is on the basis of a covering or forgiveness for their sins found in Jesus. Whether that is a once and for all application of the blood of Christ including all future sins as well or all past sins or present. I think the issue of asking for forgiveness becomes secondary since at the point of salvation a person asks for entrance into heaven on the basis of being "in christ". Our being "in christ" is not changed because we commit a sin.

So to sum it up. Our entrance into heaven is on the basis of being "in christ" and not on our own merits.

Phoebe · Mar 1, 2004

Flynmonkie said:
Phoebe, where or what is the OBOB? I have seen this quite a bit..could you explain for a newbiee!

It's the One Bread, One Body- Catholic forum. P/R/E members may ask questions, but not debate the beliefs of Catholics there. They are very helpful when we request information from them.
Use the drop down menu at the bottom of this page.

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

O'Factry said:
I believe that one can lose his salvation. Perhaps those people were never really saved in the first place. Semantics.

But how many good Chritians have cursed when an unexpected tragedy struck them dead? How many died with hatred in their hearts in the heat of battle or while being murdered? I cannot believe they are lost, unless there is scriptual evidence to that affect.

Lotar said:
Here's a few things I've read on the subject.

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2647

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2651

I think many of us can stand accused of loosing faith many times and in many areas in our life, such as our sinful human nature....most of the time unintentionally -when we do we suffer the concequences......But I just do not see G-d Sitting in heaven going Whoops your dammed...Oh, Now your saved....Opps your dammed again....Ahh, now your saved....

Sounds pretty silly when you put it that way.

Loosing faith, is another sin. I think it is the biggest challenge most Christians have in their fellowship.

I think the only unforgivable sin is to DENY Christ. I think that is what should be said. As stated above Jesus died for our sins, past, present and future.

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Phoebe said:
It's the One Bread, One Body- Catholic forum. P/R/E members may ask questions, but not debate the beliefs of Catholics there. They are very helpful when we request information from them.
Use the drop down menu at the bottom of this page.

Thank you so much for that....it was driving me batty!

Phoebe · Mar 1, 2004

Flynmonkie said:
Thank you so much for that....it was driving me batty!

Flynbatty it is!
hey... Is that flyin' monkey?

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Phoebe said:
Flynbatty it is!
hey... Is that flyin' monkey?

Yes it is! I have had the nickname Monkie since childhood...my pilot friends call me flyn squirrel (I am afraid of heights (while on the ground!) but was working on my pilots license) they said I could follow them around from tree to tree when they went out on their fun runs like a flyn squirrel. So they combined my nicknames along with I went to school in Kansas.....so the nick name just stuck!

Lotar · Mar 1, 2004

Flynmonkie said:
I think many of us can stand accused of loosing faith many times and in many areas in our life, such as our sinful human nature....most of the time unintentionally -when we do we suffer the concequences......But I just do not see G-d Sitting in heaven going Whoops your dammed...Oh, Now your saved....Opps your dammed again....Ahh, now your saved....

There is a difference between an actual loss of faith and people accusing you of losing your faith.

Sounds pretty silly when you put it that way.

Loosing faith, is another sin. I think it is the biggest challenge most Christians have in their fellowship.

Losing faith is more than just another sin. It is only though faith that one is saved, so to lose your faith is to lose your salvation.

I think the only unforgivable sin is to DENY Christ. I think that is what should be said. As stated above Jesus died for our sins, past, present and future.

Jesus died for our sins and we recieve forgiveness for them, provided that we have faith. God will tolerate no sin in His presence, so we must be justified before Him. We are justified by our faith (Galatians 2:16), nothing else. Therefore, without faith we are not justified and are lost.

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Lotar said:
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There is a difference between an actual loss of faith and people accusing you of losing your faith.

Losing faith is more than just another sin. It is only though faith that one is saved, so to lose your faith is to lose your salvation.

Jesus died for our sins and we recieve forgiveness for them, provided that we have faith. God will tolerate no sin in His presence, so we must be justified before Him. We are justified by our faith (Galatians 2:16), nothing else. Therefore, without faith we are not justified and are lost.

I just think it is important to not confuse that each of us every day "loose" faith. I/W You want something and it does not come to pass, it is normal that we waver a bit sometimes wondering what Gods plan is for the situation. We sometimes get carried away with our own agenda. Or sometimes mistakenly thinking that we are the ones in control in this secular world yet we all know it is ultimatly Gods will that will be done. No matter what kind of force we apply.

As opposed to Loosing Faith that he even exists.

See what I mean? A Clear distinction should be made here.

Not accusing anyone here....I think most humble Christians will readily admit that flaw within us.

Lotar · Mar 1, 2004

Flynmonkie said:
I just think it is important to not confuse that each of us every day "loose" faith. I/W You want something and it does not come to pass, it is normal that we waver a bit sometimes wondering what Gods plan is for the situation. We sometimes get carried away with our own agenda. Or sometimes mistakenly thinking that we are the ones in control in this secular world yet we all know it is ultimatly Gods will that will be done. No matter what kind of force we apply.

As opposed to Loosing Faith that he even exists.

See what I mean? A Clear distinction should be made here.

Not accusing anyone here....I think most humble Christians will readily admit that flaw within us.

I don't know of any Christian that loses their faith every day. I am not talking about struggles and mistakes here.

There are only two ways you can lose your faith:
1.) Coming to believe that you can be saved by your own merit, that you are "good enough" to go to heaven. Works righteousness.
2.) Coming to believe that since you are "saved" you can do whatever you please and you will be forgiven. Continueing to live in a sinfull, unrepentant lifestyle.

After one has lost their faith they might continue to believe or not. It is not belief that saves us, it is faith.

Flynmonkie · Mar 1, 2004

Lotar said:
I don't know of any Christian that loses their faith every day. I am not talking about struggles and mistakes here.

There are only two ways you can lose your faith:
1.) Coming to believe that you can be saved by your own merit, that you are "good enough" to go to heaven. Works righteousness.
2.) Coming to believe that since you are "saved" you can do whatever you please and you will be forgiven. Continueing to live in a sinfull, unrepentant lifestyle.

After one has lost their faith they might continue to believe or not. It is not belief that saves us, it is faith.

Struggles and mistakes are exactly what I am talking about! I think that when we make mistakes....such as a few I mentioned above...we will not loose our salvation.

Faith and Salvation are two different things to me.

Salvation is a grace from God. If we believe in him and continue to work towards his will. It can never be lost. The only way to loose this gracious gift from our heavenly father is to deny that he exists.

Faith is something that holds us in that fellowship of salvation every day with him. THere are some days where we forget to put our faith in him, and not even realize it try to do our own will. Other times we wonder what he is up to, but we usually hold onto blind faith. When we wonder what he is up to, somtimes it is normal for most to question. When we realize we do this we should correct ourselves.

See what I am saying? I just think for the sake of this discussion there should be definate distinction between both.

Just the other day, While involved with a case. I had great news! Evidence was just going to be handed to me regarding this (hard) case and would prove my position from the opponents own hand! I was told to expect a full admission to fault in writing in the mail! I became really excited about it, because I had prayed and felt this HAD to be an answer to those prayers, because of the unlikely event of this ever even happening. Only to find out later it never came to pass....nothing arrived in the mail! It was confusing to me, I thought hmm what did God want me to learn from this? To dangle this in front of me and me giving him all the glory. And I realized, I was asking for proof (mans proof) and not totally relying on him. I ended up winning the case without this information. Just based on truth alone. Taught me many lessons. But there was a momment when I questioned him a bit, to me that could be described as loosing faith? See what I mean. You do not actually believe I lost salvation during that time do you? As opposed as never even giving it to him in the first place because I did not even aknowledge he existed. Or denied him. Do you see the difference?

Lotar · Mar 1, 2004

There is no separation between faith and salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith. Without faith you will not recieve God's grace unto salvation.

[size=-1]James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
[/size]
[size=-1]Belief does not save. [/size]

[size=-1]Doubt and not following God's will are sins, but they do not constitute a loss of faith unless they are taken to the point where you believe you do not need God, or become unrepentant. [/size]

Please explain what exactly you believe concerning election, regeration, repentance, justification, and salvation.

What do You Think about this?

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