what do you know about Islam?

ladybug1980 said:

I have a question.

Has Muhammad ever ordered that anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed? Is there anything either in the Koran or Hadith in which he says that apostates must be killed? A lot people make this claim about Muhammad but if it is completely false, I would like to know. Also, what do Muslims here make of this claim that apostates must be killed?

A lot of non-Muslims have this conception about Islam and if it is wrong, all we want to do is know whether or not it is completely wrong.

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Apostasy is a capital offence if the apostate joins a faction which is at war with the Islamic community. Otherwise it is not.

Futuwwa said:

Apostasy is a capital offence if the apostate joins a faction which is at war with the Islamic community. Otherwise it is not.

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what if the apostate converts to Christianity? is this a capital offense?

Arthra said:

The seat of the Universal House of Justice is in Haifa, Israel on Mount Carmel. We don't call it our "HQ" however.

The reason goes back to the exile of Baha'u'llah to Akka across the bay from Haifa in 1868 by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.

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And thus evidence of your 'special' realationship with Islam. Even the Islamic nation that Baha'i prophet comes from has a 'special' relationship with your faith

Arthra said:

Thanks for asking...

- Art

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No problem

elwill said:

In warfare it is okay to lie to your enemy, most people will agree with that.

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So Muhammed was at war with this person?

What about the idea that Islam is permanently at war with that part of the world not submitted to Islam?

Booko said:

It differs because we know that nonsense about Muhammad being a pedophile is historically untrue and is nothing more than gossip spread about da internetz. Well, that would be putting it charably. Actually I think it runs a little closer to bearing false witness, but that's me.

To get back to the OP, hm, what do I know of Islam? Well, I've read the Qu'ran in several translations, have a few collections of hadith as well, have read several scholarly histories written by Muslims and non-Muslims alike, and am always interesting in learning more as I roam about various religious forums or meet Muslims in real life.

I am unlikely to become a Muslim myself, but knowledge is always a good thing.

As long as it's real knowledge and not repackaged rumourmongering.

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The evidence that he 'consummated' a marriage with a child comes from Islam itself.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
[wash my mouth]
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064
[wash my mouth]
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
[wash my mouth]
Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3309
[wash my mouth]
This is confirmed by modern day Moslem web-sites...
"Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and[wash my mouth] 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88).[wash my mouth][wash my mouth] All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator.[wash my mouth] Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".[wash my mouth] Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd.[wash my mouth] Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about cAishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old"[wash my mouth] (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!).[wash my mouth] In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P).[wash my mouth] It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions.[wash my mouth] This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim![wash my mouth] Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah's age was "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage.[wash my mouth] This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet.[wash my mouth] Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . ."
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
(We concur with the general contents of the article.
and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best Mufti Ebrahim Desai http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6618)

Booko said:

It differs because we know that nonsense about Muhammad being a pedophile is historically untrue and is nothing more than gossip spread about da internetz. Well, that would be putting it charably. Actually I think it runs a little closer to bearing false witness, but that's me.

To get back to the OP, hm, what do I know of Islam? Well, I've read the Qu'ran in several translations, have a few collections of hadith as well, have read several scholarly histories written by Muslims and non-Muslims alike, and am always interesting in learning more as I roam about various religious forums or meet Muslims in real life.

I am unlikely to become a Muslim myself, but knowledge is always a good thing.

As long as it's real knowledge and not repackaged rumourmongering.

Click to expand...

All the evidence about Aisha being only nine years old when the marriage with Muhammed was 'consummated' comes from Islamic texts!

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
[wash my mouth]
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.236
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
[wash my mouth]
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064
[wash my mouth]
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
[wash my mouth]
Book 008, Number 3311:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3309
[wash my mouth]

Booko said:

Well, there's the hadith that says that every drop of rain is escorted to earth by an angel.

And then there's the one that says angels will not enter a house where a dog is present.


So if anyone needs any cheap roof repairs -- buy a dog.

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What's any of this to do with Muhammed urging someone to lie so as to murder another?

Booko said:

Even the eminent complilers of hadith Muslim and Bukhari tossed out reams of hadith as unreliable.

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Was the one I cited 'tossed out'?

Booko said:

I realize that there are Muslims that put hadith on the same plane as the Qu'ran itself, but there are other Muslims that do not.

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Thanks for a swathe of truisms

By the way, your previous post is flawed. The evidence that Muhammed had sexual relations with a nine year old is based on Islamic evidence.

Booko said:

Originally it was in the Ottoman Empire, then the British Protectorate of Palestine and now Israel.

Baha'u'llah didn't have any choice about where he got exiled and Akka was under Muslim rule at the time.

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And thus demonstrating the 'special relationship' Baha'i have with Islam that Arthra alluded to!

ladybug1980 said:

what if the apostate converts to Christianity? is this a capital offense?

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The Apostate is punished regardless of which ideology he/she moves to; including atheism.

They're formally given three chances to recant (that is, to rejoin Islam) and after the third, they're meant to be killed - if they've not recanted.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Imagine if spies, double agents and undercover drug agents could'nt lie

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But we're not dealing with the same type of 'war'. In Islam EVERYONE not under Islam - or submitted to an Islamic power is at 'war' with Islam. Even if you personally have no animonisty towards Islam yourself, and are happy even to provide relativist apologies for it - unless they consider you've submitted already by doing so

Montalban said:

What's any of this to do with Muhammed urging someone to lie so as to murder another?

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The question was asked concerning which hadith were considered reliable and which weren't. Both of those hadith I quoted were at least at one time and in one area, considered reliable.

Thanks for a swathe of truisms

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Thanks for a pointless remark.,

By the way, your previous post is flawed. The evidence that Muhammed had sexual relations with a nine year old is based on Islamic evidence.

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Only if you completely and obtusely misunderstand the practice of betrothal in the culture in question.

I guess all those scholarly historical works I read in university theology libraries were flawed too.

Maybe I should send you the authors names so you can correct their flawed historical work? Perhaps while you're at it you can correct their Arabic translations as well. *shrug*

Montalban said:

But we're not dealing with the same type of 'war'. In Islam EVERYONE not under Islam - or submitted to an Islamic power is at 'war' with Islam. Even if you personally have no animonisty towards Islam yourself, and are happy even to provide relativist apologies for it - unless they consider you've submitted already by doing so

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Yeah, I can tell all those Muslims are at war with me everytime I walk go into their restaurants to eat with my Baha'i jewelry clearly visible. And yeah, they do notice it.

And my Baha'i friends who are moving to Dubai this year, I'm sure they've noticed how their future neighbors are all going to be at war with them too.

And my Muslims friends online, yeah I've noticed how they're all "at war" with me too. All that friendliness and charity and a dedication to actual truth is clear evidence of being "at war" with me.

Montalban said:

The Apostate is punished regardless of which ideology he/she moves to; including atheism.

They're formally given three chances to recant (that is, to rejoin Islam) and after the third, they're meant to be killed - if they've not recanted.

Click to expand...

I'm seriously not trying to be mean to anyone or anything, really...and I really don't think I'm better than anyone else...but I have to ask something...

let's just say Muhammad was intelligent in a lot of things...and said many wise things...and let's say that at one time he ordered a group of people who left his religion to be killed...

just trying to give a scenario...

if so...doesn't it cast even an infinitesimal shadow of doubt as to the nature of a person who would allow one human being to kill another human being because the 2nd human being could not feel any longer an allegience to the first human being's faith? no one's perfect guys...I'm seriously not trying to denigrate anyone's faith because I myself KNOW how painful it is for my faith to be insulted so I don't want to do this...I just can't help but wonder...does the fact that he ordered someone who left Islam (even if it was at one time) to be killed at least make you sit down and wonder if this kind of action is OK with you?

Montalban said:

And thus demonstrating the 'special relationship' Baha'i have with Islam that Arthra alluded to!

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I have no idea what you're talking about with your vague yammering about "special relationships" as if perhaps there's something nefarious or negative going on somewhere.

Anyone who bothered to crack a Baha'i text wouldn't have far to read to find there are significant connections to Islam. Most of the initial audience were in fact Muslims, and many of the texts are answering specific questions posed by Muslims in Persia.

It's about as startling a statement to say that we have a "special relationship" to Islam as it is to say that Christianity enjoys a "special relationship" to Judaism. Or to say that the Pauline epistles have a "special relationship" to Hellenism.

It's a historical observation. What's your point?

rhyddid_rose said:

Hail and Greetings

I have a question: Are Muslims are war with Asatruar, because if they are, I didnt hear that declaration. Seems to me most Muslims dont know that Germanic/Scandinavian Paganism exists. Funny, I dont feel like I'm at war with anyone except meself.

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Hm, well now that I think about it, I know someone who's Asatru and was formerly Muslim.

You would think if Muslims were at war with Asatruar he might've said something about it?

Oh well, we mustn't let anyone be confused with actual facts.

Booko said:

I have no idea what you're talking about with your vague yammering about "special relationships" as if perhaps there's something nefarious or negative going on somewhere.

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I don't know. Arthra used the term. If you wish to demonstrate that you're reading the thread you might want to go back and see where he said it.

Booko said:

Anyone who bothered to crack a Baha'i text wouldn't have far to read to find there are significant connections to Islam.

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I read what Arthra said!

Booko said:

It's a historical observation. What's your point?

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That Islam's so benevolent that the Baha'i had to go to Israel to escape persecutioN!

Booko said:

The question was asked concerning which hadith were considered reliable and which weren't. Both of those hadith I quoted were at least at one time and in one area, considered reliable.

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And what's that got to do with the Hadith I cite.

It's like I present evidence and you 'dispute' that by pointing to entirely different examples that are under question! Great work!

Booko said:

Thanks for a pointless remark.,

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No more so than your truisms. I play to my audience

Booko said:

Only if you completely and obtusely misunderstand the practice of betrothal in the culture in question.

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Only if you assume 'consummated' and 'betrothal' are the same thing.

Booko said:

I guess all those scholarly historical works I read in university theology libraries were flawed too.

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No. Just the person reading them

Booko said:

Maybe I should send you the authors names so you can correct their flawed historical work? Perhaps while you're at it you can correct their Arabic translations as well. *shrug*

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Try this from Islamicity's own Hadith search
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:

Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

they can differentiate between 'betrothal' and 'consummation'. Start from there and get back to me when you've worked out the difference

Here's another good source for you...

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Booko said:

Yeah, I can tell all those Muslims are at war with me everytime I walk go into their restaurants to eat with my Baha'i jewelry clearly visible. And yeah, they do notice it.

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Well your personal experiences are I guess, just that conclusive!

Booko said:

And my Baha'i friends who are moving to Dubai this year, I'm sure they've noticed how their future neighbors are all going to be at war with them too.

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They will if they start preaching.

Booko said:

And my Muslims friends online, yeah I've noticed how they're all "at war" with me too. All that friendliness and charity and a dedication to actual truth is clear evidence of being "at war" with me.

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Again, personal experiences- I'd like to see your essays "It's my experience of..." etc.