What do you feel are the strong points of creationism?

I don't think we're in disagreement. I agree that YECism fosters an unyielding commitment to the Bible (rather, Evangelicalism does that). This commitment is what saves them; at the same time, it is also the undoing of some who come to accept science. Again, a double-edged sword. Their unwavering faith in God is a good thing; their unwavering conflation of science with atheism is a bad thing.

Yep, we seem to be in broad agreement.

Wow, agreement in some posts, and in another post, a person who changed their mind. All in the same thread! I'm writing this down.

Papias

Mallon said:

I don't think we're in disagreement. I agree that YECism fosters an unyielding commitment to the Bible (rather, Evangelicalism does that). This commitment is what saves them; at the same time, it is also the undoing of some who come to accept science. Again, a double-edged sword. Their unwavering faith in God is a good thing; their unwavering conflation of science with atheism is a bad thing.

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But can a good tree produce bad fruit?

With the risk of sounding cynical, none. There are no strong points of Creationism. I see Creationism (including myself when I was one) as a symptom of Bible idolatry. As ultimate faith in the Bible, not God. So I see no strong points about it whatsoever (not to say I see no strong point about creationists, since creationists and non-creationists have a lot of overlap).

You know I have been thinking of this for some time, and have come to the conclusion that probably the strongest point of Creationism YEC style is the belief that certain knowledge will be unattainable (knowing the actual mechanisms of creation) but is also probably its weakest point in the belief that an understanding of how the process looked is contrary to the Bible. The problem is not that science and the Bible are at war with each other, it is however presented to be the case that they are by both sides of the debate.

All truth is God's truth!

Another thing Creationism has in its favour is the severe obnoxiousness of the people who obsessively rail against it with such religious fervour. As CS Lewis once said, "What inclines me now to think you may be right in regarding evolution as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives, is not so much your arguments against it, as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders." This statement, I think, applies to most of the anti-Creationists who post in the Creation & Evolution section.

marlowe007 said:

Another thing Creationism has in its favour is the severe obnoxiousness of the people who obsessively rail against it with such religious fervour. As CS Lewis once said, "What inclines me now to think you may be right in regarding evolution as the central and radical lie in the whole web of falsehood that now governs our lives, is not so much your arguments against it, as the fanatical and twisted attitudes of its defenders." This statement, I think, applies to most of the anti-Creationists who post in the Creation & Evolution section.

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However, that is not a strength of creationism as an interpretation of either nature or scripture.

I can't say I have noted any greater obnoxiousness in the opponents of creationism than in its defenders. There are people without courtesy in all groups.

crawfish said:

As ancillary to my similar thread on evolution, if you have any thoughts on some of the stronger points of YEC/OEC/ID then I would like to hear them as well. This is because I want to be fair, and it's easier to involve an audience when you're treating their subject with respect.

I have two thoughts here: I do respect the fact that Creationism is teaching some level of skepticism towards scientific claims. While not specifically the fault of science or scientists, the scientific media is very adept at presenting current scientific theory or bold statements without mentioning that many parts and pieces of said theory are still unknown. Ida is an example. I've also seen it in any number of Discovery Channel or Nova shows where they speak of a process as if it is fact when I very well know that it is only the best current explanation but there are enough questions that, when (if) we finally get it figured out, the process will probably look only somewhat like what they are showing. As scientific thought becomes more mainstream, it is imperative that the general population has a better understanding of the scientific process; otherwise, it simply looks like science is always guessing.

My second thought is that Creationism helps keep in mind that we must, as Christians, begin and end our thoughts with scripture. We must give it the utmost respect, and when we make claims about nature that seem to conflict with long-held beliefs, we must respect it enough to consider the theological implications as equal to the material.

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I think the strengths of creationism is the weaknesses of evolution. I think that the strength of creation can be seen by reading in the bible that each animal produces after it's own kind. We can observe this naturally, but we cannot observe a fish becoming a monkey, because evolution would say this change would take billions of years.

Evolution is the same problem as with Silvia Browne's propecies, in that we will not be around when these come to pass. We will have to keep the information around in a time capsule over decades to see the false prophesy to come to pass. By that time we are now dead and we have found out for ourselves where our souls go.

Evolution is a waste of time and a distraction from seeking an actual God that says that He is findable because He rewards those who are diligent to seek Him. Instead of seeking Him, we are seeking proof of something that will never be seen, will happen but we will not be alive, or we can look at the present and see proof before our eyes if we read the truth in the bible and look around.

If you are seeking proof of evolution all of your life with all your time spent toward this, where is the time to diligently seek God. You will seek the answers of evolution diligently, assume God does not exist. Evolution has no promise of being proven, but I know that a promise of God is proven to me by the fact that He issued the promise of the Holy Spirit, I have diligently seeked Him, and He has given me His Holy Spirit as promised. If you would call me a liar or delusional, then I would ask this: Why do you believe a lie, delusion, and distraction as evolution with just the promise of coming to pass over billions of years over a God who gives you better promises as of eternal life instead of all the uncertainty?

The bible has history, stories of heroic deeds, poetry, prophecy said to come to pass which is observable and historically accurate. It is a good explanation of most any answers we are looking for and is a good investment to read. In fact, there are programs you can follow to read the bible in one year if that is your pace. Seems a good investment to read in your spare time as you are pursuing other things. I challenge anyone who does not read the bible to read it and prove the book wrong. In fact you might find it enjoyable as I did years ago and find out how it will change you from inside out.

Bless.

kenblaster5000 said:

Evolution is a waste of time and a distraction from seeking an actual God that says that He is findable because He rewards those who are diligent to seek Him.

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So if a Christian is a scientist then you are saying they should quit their job and instead study the Bible all day? Believe it or not it is possible to understand science and have a relationship with God.

kenblaster5000 said:

Instead of seeking Him, we are seeking proof of something that will never be seen, will happen but we will not be alive, or we can look at the present and see proof before our eyes if we read the truth in the bible and look around.

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If it was never observed then there would be no evolutionary theory.

kenblaster5000 said:

You will seek the answers of evolution diligently, assume God does not exist.

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Evolution ≠ no God
Metaphysical naturalism = no God

kenblaster5000 said:

Evolution has no promise of being proven, but I know that a promise of God is proven to me by the fact that He issued the promise of the Holy Spirit, I have diligently sought Him, and He has given me His Holy Spirit as promised. If you would call me a liar or delusional, then I would ask this: Why do you believe a lie, delusion, and distraction as evolution with just the promise of coming to pass over billions of years over a God who gives you better promises as of eternal life instead of all the uncertainty?

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I don't understand what you are getting at. What does the Holy Spirit have to do with Evolution?

kenblaster5000 said:

The bible has history, stories of heroic deeds, poetry, prophecy said to come to pass which is observable and historically accurate. It is a good explanation of most any answers we are looking for and is a good investment to read. In fact, there are programs you can follow to read the bible in one year if that is your pace. Seems a good investment to read in your spare time as you are pursuing other things. I challenge anyone who does not read the bible to read it and prove the book wrong. In fact you might find it enjoyable as I did years ago and find out how it will change you from inside out.

Bless.

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I'm pretty sure most of us are Christians here and read our Bibles.

kenblaster5000 said:

I think the strengths of creationism is the weaknesses of evolution.

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No, weaknesses in evolution cannot be chalked up as strengths for creationism as the truth might be something else altogether.

I think that the strength of creation can be seen by reading in the bible that each animal produces after it's own kind.

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That, however, is not unique to creationism as evolution says the same thing. Evolution does not deny that each animal produces after its own kind. Rather it says that the nature of the kind is modified over time. This does not contradict scripture. In fact it is necessary to young-earth creationism as well as to evolution. How else do you get multiple species from a single created kind if the kind cannot be modified over time?

Evolution is the same problem as with Silvia Browne's propecies, in that we will not be around when these come to pass. We will have to keep the information around in a time capsule over decades to see the false prophesy to come to pass. By that time we are now dead and we have found out for ourselves where our souls go.

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Not really, because the theory of evolution doesn't predict the future course of evolution. What it often predicts is the unobserved past. So, before any fossils of them had been discovered, it was already predicted that we would find dinosaurs with feathers, whale-like animals with legs instead of flippers, snakes with legs, fish with fingers and a reptile-mammal intermediate with a double-jaw joint. All of these predictions have been sustained by later discoveries.

Similarly, when the chromosome number difference between humans and other hominid species was noted, it was predicted that one of the human chromosomes would be a fusion of two hominid chromosomes and the details of its structure (a telomeric region in the centre, two centromeres) was also predicted. This prediction was discovered to be true when the structure of human chromosome 2 was deciphered.

Evolution is a waste of time and a distraction from seeking an actual God that says that He is findable because He rewards those who are diligent to seek Him.

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Not really because these things of God are true with or without evolution. Or rather since evolution is true these things of God would not be true if the bible contradicted evolution.

If you are seeking proof of evolution all of your life with all your time spent toward this, where is the time to diligently seek God.

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Since we already have ample evidence of evolution, we don't need to spend time seeking it. We have all the rest of our lives (however long or short that is) to seek God.

You will seek the answers of evolution diligently, assume God does not exist.

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That is incorrect. There is no need to assume God does not exist. Evolution is one of the ways God works in the world.

Evolution has no promise of being proven,

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No doubt you think this is true, but it is probably a matter of not understanding what sort of evidence is needed to validate evolution. You are probably barking up the wrong tree for evidence that is really irrelevant.

Evolution has already been proven to the extent that science proves anything; i.e. there has been enough evidence accumulated in favour of evolution without any significant contradictory evidence that it makes sense to operate on the provisional basis that it is an accurate model of the origin of biodiversity.

I challenge anyone who does not read the bible to read it and prove the book wrong. In fact you might find it enjoyable as I did years ago and find out how it will change you from inside out.

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You should keep in mind that this forum is in the Christian-only section of the web site. You are not speaking to unbelievers here. Most of us have sought God, have read the bible cover to cover at least once, have received the Holy Spirit and have experienced the change from inside out that you speak of.

kenblaster5000 said:

I think the strengths of creationism is the weaknesses of evolution. I think that the strength of creation can be seen by reading in the bible that each animal produces after it's own kind.

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Worth pointing out here that the bible doesn't say each animal produces after it's own kind. You are right to say we should seek God, not just before we are saved, but all our lives. But seeking God and seeking to understand his word, what he is saying and how he is saying it, can often mean leaving behind what people have told us that scripture says and searching out what it says for ourself. I am always amazed when I come across creationists claiming the bible says animals reproduce after their own kind, or that God commanded the beasts produces after their own kind. They have been told that is what the bible says, I am pretty sure that is what they understand the bible to mean every time they read the passage, but they have never looked to see if that is what the bible actually says. That is one of the greatest weaknesses in Creationism.

We can observe this naturally, but we cannot observe a fish becoming a monkey, because evolution would say this change would take billions of years.

Evolution is the same problem as with Silvia Browne's propecies, in that we will not be around when these come to pass. We will have to keep the information around in a time capsule over decades to see the false prophesy to come to pass. By that time we are now dead and we have found out for ourselves where our souls go.

Evolution is a waste of time and a distraction from seeking an actual God that says that He is findable because He rewards those who are diligent to seek Him. Instead of seeking Him, we are seeking proof of something that will never be seen, will happen but we will not be alive, or we can look at the present and see proof before our eyes if we read the truth in the bible and look around.

If you are seeking proof of evolution all of your life with all your time spent toward this, where is the time to diligently seek God. You will seek the answers of evolution diligently, assume God does not exist. Evolution has no promise of being proven, but I know that a promise of God is proven to me by the fact that He issued the promise of the Holy Spirit, I have diligently seeked Him, and He has given me His Holy Spirit as promised. If you would call me a liar or delusional, then I would ask this: Why do you believe a lie, delusion, and distraction as evolution with just the promise of coming to pass over billions of years over a God who gives you better promises as of eternal life instead of all the uncertainty?

The bible has history, stories of heroic deeds, poetry, prophecy said to come to pass which is observable and historically accurate. It is a good explanation of most any answers we are looking for and is a good investment to read. In fact, there are programs you can follow to read the bible in one year if that is your pace. Seems a good investment to read in your spare time as you are pursuing other things. I challenge anyone who does not read the bible to read it and prove the book wrong. In fact you might find it enjoyable as I did years ago and find out how it will change you from inside out.

Bless.

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Studying evolution is no different from any other career in science, or from any other career. There is no conflict between being a biologist or a physicist a plumber or a street sweeper and seeking God. Jesus was a carpenter most of his earthly life, it did not mean he was not doing the will of God his father.

Assyrian said:

Worth pointing out here that the bible doesn't say each animal produces after it's own kind. You are right to say we should seek God, not just before we are saved, but all our lives. But seeking God and seeking to understand his word, what he is saying and how he is saying it, can often mean leaving behind what people have told us that scripture says and searching out what it says for ourself. I am always amazed when I come across creationists claiming the bible says animals reproduce after their own kind, or that God commanded the beasts produces after their own kind. They have been told that is what the bible says, I am pretty sure that is what they understand the bible to mean every time they read the passage, but they have never looked to see if that is what the bible actually says. That is one of the greatest weaknesses in Creationism.

Studying evolution is no different from any other career in science, or from any other career. There is no conflict between being a biologist or a physicist a plumber or a street sweeper and seeking God. Jesus was a carpenter most of his earthly life, it did not mean he was not doing the will of God his father.

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A seed does produce after it's kind. An apple seed makes an apple tree. An orange tree makes oranges. An orange tree will never produce apples or a human being. Our ancestors are not bananas. By the same token, a dog will produce dogs with a partner, and a cat will produce cats with a partner. These are simple things that can be observed. Now with evolution theory they will make a claim that we came from primates, they have not proven it, but many declare that it is true. Jesus was a carpenter and looked at the natural world to explain the spiritual world. He said "Build your life on the Rock, and not the sand." He said "Behold the lillies of the field, they do not toil or spin and even Solomon was not arrayed as them, if they that do not work are clothed with beauty, how much more will God clothe you, you of little faith." I have been out pruning a tree and God spoke to me. He said "I will prune you like this tree." He promises that if we bear fruit, He will prune us to bear more fruit. Psychology would say that if we hear voices we must be mentally ill, but God says, "This day if you hear My voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the rebellion...." Jesus said, "I am the good shephard, the sheep hear My voice and a voice of a stranger they will not follow." If you have sold yourself to do wickedness in the sight of the Lord through unbelief, that is your dilemma. He says do not have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from the living God. God says He will quicken us or give us life. We try to figure out His creation when God Himself says, "I spoke and it was so..." You will find that God brought things out of nothing. God calls those things that are not as if they are. The new testament warns about being cheated of your birthright through vain philosophies. Could it be that the primordial ooze or soup as you will is a lot like the soup given to Esau for the birthright that Esau rejected and despised? Should we go in the disobedience of Esau or the kingly direction like Jacob who had the birthright and blessing and saw the angels ascending and descending on a latter from heaven and called that place wonderful and surely the house of God? Reprobates will always seek out something to fill themselves of the emptiness inside that should be filled with the presence of God or they will be leave their Father like the prodigal to go to where seems fruitful to only tend pigs and eat the food of pigs in the pigsty. The prodigal "came to himself" and went back to his father, not as a hireling, but a welcomed dear son. A son that was lost and found. A sheep that the master of the sheep leaves the rest to go scout out. There is much rejoicing with the angels in the presence of God when one sinner comes to the Lord. Even a person who walked with him, treated his salvation with contempt, and then came back to renew his heart from his perpetual backsliding.

Bless.

Mallon said:

I don't think we're in disagreement. I agree that YECism fosters an unyielding commitment to the Bible (rather, Evangelicalism does that). This commitment is what saves them; at the same time, it is also the undoing of some who come to accept science. Again, a double-edged sword. Their unwavering faith in God is a good thing; their unwavering conflation of science with atheism is a bad thing.

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kenblaster5000 said:

A seed does produce after it's kind. An apple seed makes an apple tree. An orange tree makes oranges. An orange tree will never produce apples or a human being. Our ancestors are not bananas. By the same token, a dog will produce dogs with a partner, and a cat will produce cats with a partner. These are simple things that can be observed.

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I'm pretty sure we all agree on this. If you are trying to describe evolution like that then you probably don't understand how it works.

kenblaster5000 said:

Now with evolution theory they will make a claim that we came from primates, they have not proven it, but many declare that it is true.

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Not only have we descended from primates, we are primates (This classification was determined by a creationist, Carolus Linnaeus, in early to mid 1700s...probably 100 years before Darwin.

kenblaster5000 said:

Jesus was a carpenter and looked at the natural world to explain the spiritual world. He said "Build your life on the Rock, and not the sand." He said "Behold the lillies of the field, they do not toil or spin and even Solomon was not arrayed as them, if they that do not work are clothed with beauty, how much more will God clothe you, you of little faith." I have been out pruning a tree and God spoke to me. He said "I will prune you like this tree." He promises that if we bear fruit, He will prune us to bear more fruit. Psychology would say that if we hear voices we must be mentally ill, but God says, "This day if you hear My voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the rebellion...." Jesus said, "I am the good shephard, the sheep hear My voice and a voice of a stranger they will not follow." If you have sold yourself to do wickedness in the sight of the Lord through unbelief, that is your dilemma. He says do not have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from the living God. God says He will quicken us or give us life. We try to figure out His creation when God Himself says, "I spoke and it was so..." You will find that God brought things out of nothing. God calls those things that are not as if they are. The new testament warns about being cheated of your birthright through vain philosophies. Could it be that the primordial ooze or soup as you will is a lot like the soup given to Esau for the birthright that Esau rejected and despised? Should we go in the disobedience of Esau or the kingly direction like Jacob who had the birthright and blessing and saw the angels ascending and descending on a latter from heaven and called that place wonderful and surely the house of God? Reprobates will always seek out something to fill themselves of the emptiness inside that should be filled with the presence of God or they will be leave their Father like the prodigal to go to where seems fruitful to only tend pigs and eat the food of pigs in the pigsty. The prodigal "came to himself" and went back to his father, not as a hireling, but a welcomed dear son. A son that was lost and found. A sheep that the master of the sheep leaves the rest to go scout out. There is much rejoicing with the angels in the presence of God when one sinner comes to the Lord. Even a person who walked with him, treated his salvation with contempt, and then came back to renew his heart from his perpetual backsliding.

Bless.

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Not sure what this has to do with anything...we're all Christians here.

kenblaster5000 said:

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kenblaster5000 said:

I was asking quite a few years ago for God to reveal to me His purpose. Now, visions and words spoken do not come when we want them, it is when God makes it happen. I had a vision of the word evangelism.

This has happened repeatedly as I asked God to speak to me in ways I understand. Apparently I am a visual and audio person, hence eyes to see and ears to hear.

I was praying one time about a "Christian" band I was listening to called creed when I got a vision of galatians in a box. Galatians talks about being so quick to follow another gospel. I threw my Creed albums away just to find out now that the lead singer was into enlightenment and not Jesus Christ.

Satan can offer us something appealing, but he is an angel disguised as an angel of light and apparently still brings us false wisdom through the pride of life.

I was praying about habits and when I would be delivered when I had a vision of Ephesians in a box of fire. Apparently, our walk with the Lord will bring us through many firey trials, that is a lot like being refined as silver and gold. With heat, the dross is brought up off of gold or silver, scraped away, so that the metal can shine. When God looks into the metal, He sees His image.

I have had many visions since then as God speaks to me "Son, you see well, what do you see?" We see something, God confirms us through word spoken, in my case through my spiritual mother who begat me through the gospel. As I have grown a bit more mature I have been used to confirm some things to her through divine utterance and visions. Thus, what we reap is what we sow. She sowed confirmation through obedience and reaped confirmation through obedience.

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That's great that God has spoken to you, but unfortunately that has nothing to do with evolution.

kenblaster5000 said:

Evangelism does produce an unyielding fidelity to God when God delivers on His promises because He is pure fidelity. Evolution on the other hand is unyielding on promises and lies that have not been proven and by my opinion will not be proven.

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Evolution has no promises, it is simply a description of what is observed in the world.

kenblaster5000 said:

Survival of the fittest and natural selection are good, I might call them laws and greatly observable, to be true in the animal kingdom. It is when we lower ourselves to the degree of apes that we become part of the foodchain of evolutionists that eat up our faith with deceit.

When survival of the fittest and natural selection are applied to humans, then we get into the realm of pride, and not compassion. Where studied individuals think to be smarter than the average Christian who believes God's word is inspired by Him and infallible, not like evolution which is fallible and deceitful. God is not like a man that He should lie. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Bless.

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I think you mean, metaphysical naturalists or atheists, evolution doesn't explain how we are to live our lives.

I agree, God doesn't lie in anything that He does.

Psalm 19:1-2
1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.

The Creation Stories (there are two) were not intended as a scientific statement; they were intended as (1) a demythologization and (2) a 'setting apart' of Man from the other animals.

The first Creation Story, found in Genesis 1:1 to 2:2, methodically reduced the status of everything and every animal the people saw around them. The Hebrews had just come out of a land where the theology taught that there were a multitude of gods and goddesses.The sun, the moon, the stars, the land animals, the marine animals; all of these were representations of either a god or a goddess.

The first Creation Story systematically destroyed this theology, by teaching that all that the Hebrews saw around them were objects or animals, nothing more. By the time that they had reached Genesis 2:2, the Hebrews had come to the realization that there was only one Divine Being, and that person could never be portrayed in any way, shape, or form.

The second Creation Story, found in Genesis 2:3 to 2:25, countered the attitude which egyptian theology taught concerning Man. According to egyptian mythology the first five days were spent by gods and goddesses doing nothing but bringing into existence other gods and goddesses. On the sixth day man and all the other animals were created almost as an afterthought. You can read this at www.theologywebsite.com/etext/egypt/creation.shtml
The second Creation Story raised Man to a unique rank above that of all other animals. He alone was given the authority to name the other animals. He alone was provided with a special living area (The Garden of Eden). He alone was given a companion who was literally a part of him. Man was no longer just another animal whose sole reason for being was to serve the gods and goddesses. He was a unique creature in and of himself, set apart by God from all the other creatures.

I myself believe that both these stories were written by the same man, and at the same point in time. The author had two different aspects of the egyptian creation story which he had to correct. In Genesis 1:1 to 2:2, he corrected the teaching that the people were seeing representations of the gods and goddesses in all that they saw around them. In Genesis 2:2 to 2:25, he corrected the attitude that Man was just another animal, elevating him to a status singular to our species, with the corresponding responsibilities. I feel that this denoted a man who knew the egyptian mythology that the Hebrews had been part of during their stay in Egypt, and knew that mythology intimately, so that he could dissect it.

As for my own belief concerning evolution, I accept microevolution, but not macroevolution. I believe that God has caused the progression of several species and has worked at evolving them so that they might better serve his purposes. But at a certain point in time he has decided that certain species no longer are needed, and then they have been extincted, only to be replaced by other species more amenable to his purposes.

As for our species, I believe that we are indeed unique, not due to an accident of random chance, but as a direct result of conscious and deliberate actions taken by a Supreme Being. We are 'hardwired' to believe that there is a Supreme Being. History records that those who claim to deny his existence have not accepted the void that has ensued as a result of their unbelief, but instead have elevated a person or a philosophy in order to fill it. We have a conscious attitude common to all of us that certain actions are to be accepted as 'right' while other actions are to be rejected as 'wrong'. We are capable of changing our environment to better serve us, rather than limiting ourselves to those places and conditions in which we could naturally survive. We are capable of great magnanimity, not only towards our immediate families and neighbors, but also towards those who live far away from us.

We are also capable of extreme cruelty. Our 'dark side' renders us willing to perform acts of such deliberate destruction to others and their property that is so grave that even the most savage predatory animal cannot equal it. We are alone in our conscious effort at figuring out more powerful means of destroying others. It is a flaw that is also unique to Man.

One of the saints once said, "He who is capable of the greatest good is also capable of the greatest evil." We should remember that. It wasn't intended as a statement of piety; it was intended as a statement of fact.

callmeMurph said:

I'm pretty sure we all agree on this. If you are trying to describe evolution like that then you probably don't understand how it works.I do not care for evolution. Science is a better way of discovering truth.



Not only have we descended from primates, we are primates (This classification was determined by a creationist, Carolus Linnaeus, in early to mid 1700s...probably 100 years before Darwin.If we are labeled primates, my opinion is that man is man and man is separate and distinct from all other creatures.


Not sure what this has to do with anything...we're all Christians here.Some honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.






That's great that God has spoken to you, but unfortunately that has nothing to do with evolution.I agree, one is the word of God and the other is the formulations of man.




Evolution has no promises, it is simply a description of what is observed in the world.Agreed, no promise.



I think you mean, metaphysical naturalists or atheists, evolution doesn't explain how we are to live our lives.But any atheist can expound on morals. What is right or wrong. Anyone with a seared conscience would not care for right and wrong.

I agree, God doesn't lie in anything that He does. Or says. The devil is a liar and mixes truth with lies.

Psalm 19:1-2
1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.

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The rest of the Lord. Even while we sleep, we gain knowledge. In the day, we can be filled with His living water and pour it out to be filled again. If I did not praise Him, the very rocks would cry out praise to Him.

kenblaster5000 said:

A seed does produce after it's kind. An apple seed makes an apple tree. An orange tree makes oranges. An orange tree will never produce apples or a human being. Our ancestors are not bananas. By the same token, a dog will produce dogs with a partner, and a cat will produce cats with a partner. These are simple things that can be observed.

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Mind you that dog sitting there wagging its tail had great...great grandparents who were wolves. Bananas are an interesting example too. They don't have seeds. Their ancestor did but they were pretty inedible, large hard seeds and not much flesh, then a mutant variety came along, sterile, no seeds just tasty flesh, but they could be propagated by cuttings.

Anyway, I see you are saying that dogs do produce dogs, not that the bible says they reproduce according to their kind. There is as you seem to point out a verse that some take to say plants produce seeds according to their kind, but I tinhk this is a misunderstanding. Lets look at 'after their kind in Genesis 1'

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Now people look at verse 11 & 12 and think it says the plants are producing seeds and fruit after their kind, but look at how the exact same phrase is used in verse 21, 24 & 25. Verse 21 God creates the fish and the birds after their kind. In other words it is saying God produced all the different kinds of fish and birds. Verse 24 again it is referring to the different kinds of living that are being formed, God commands the earth to produce different kinds of animals cattle and beasts. Verse 25 describes this as God creating the different beasts of the earth and cattle. According to their kinds says nothing about how they reproduce, but that different kinds were created.

Now go back to verse 11&12 and see if the phrase is being used the same way or is Genesis using the exact same phrase in completely different ways and for differnst purposes.. Look at the verbs in the verses.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

You have the main verbs, bring forth, just as you have God created in verses 21 and 25, and let the earth bring forth in verse 24. Then you have sub clauses, herb yielding seed, the fruit tree yielding fruit. Now the question you need to ask yourself is, does 'according to their kind' refer to the sub clause it follows, fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind, or does 'after its kind refer to the main verb as it does in the creation of fish and birds living creatures and beasts: the earth brought forth grass and herb ... after his kind. This is not talking about plants reproducing similar plants, but is telling us how God created different kinds of plants.

Now with evolution theory they will make a claim that we came from primates, they have not proven it, but many declare that it is true. Jesus was a carpenter and looked at the natural world to explain the spiritual world. He said "Build your life on the Rock, and not the sand." He said "Behold the lillies of the field, they do not toil or spin and even Solomon was not arrayed as them, if they that do not work are clothed with beauty, how much more will God clothe you, you of little faith." I have been out pruning a tree and God spoke to me. He said "I will prune you like this tree." He promises that if we bear fruit, He will prune us to bear more fruit. Psychology would say that if we hear voices we must be mentally ill, but God says, "This day if you hear My voice, do not harden your hearts as they did in the rebellion...." Jesus said, "I am the good shephard, the sheep hear My voice and a voice of a stranger they will not follow." If you have sold yourself to do wickedness in the sight of the Lord through unbelief, that is your dilemma. He says do not have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from the living God. God says He will quicken us or give us life.

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Good job I follow Jesus and put my trust in him isn't it

We try to figure out His creation when God Himself says, "I spoke and it was so..." You will find that God brought things out of nothing. God calls those things that are not as if they are.

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Don't forget who is doing the speaking, God can work miracles in an instant and create form nothing, but don't forget Jesus called his Father a gardener, he loves to watch his handiwork grow. Thing is, we are warned again and again that God work may seem slow to us. Hab 2:3 For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end--it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay. Isaiah 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. God spoke and it was so, but it does not say it happened immediately.

The new testament warns about being cheated of your birthright through vain philosophies.

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I see the problem here, you think evolution is a philosophy.

Could it be that the primordial ooze or soup as you will is a lot like the soup given to Esau for the birthright that Esau rejected and despised?

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Probably not, I haven't bought any primordial soup lately and I certainly haven't sold my birthright for any.

Should we go in the disobedience of Esau or the kingly direction like Jacob who had the birthright and blessing and saw the angels ascending and descending on a latter from heaven and called that place wonderful and surely the house of God? Reprobates will always seek out something to fill themselves of the emptiness inside that should be filled with the presence of God or they will be leave their Father like the prodigal to go to where seems fruitful to only tend pigs and eat the food of pigs in the pigsty. The prodigal "came to himself" and went back to his father, not as a hireling, but a welcomed dear son. A son that was lost and found. A sheep that the master of the sheep leaves the rest to go scout out. There is much rejoicing with the angels in the presence of God when one sinner comes to the Lord. Even a person who walked with him, treated his salvation with contempt, and then came back to renew his heart from his perpetual backsliding.

Bless.

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You are assuming it is a sin not to believe the earth was made in six days, but the bible never says that. When the apostle went out preaching to the gospel to the Gentiles, and writing epistles to the new churches, there is no mention of having to believe in a literal six day creation. It doesn't say we are supposed to interpret God making Adam from dust literally either. The bible says God made us from clay too, he is the potter we are the clay, but there is no contradiction between that and knowing I was formed in my mother's womb. In fact the bible says I was. Don't go making up rules to bind fellow believers Christ has set free, and thinking they must be sinful and rebellious if they don't understand the bible the way you do.