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What do you believe regarding creation and the age of the universe?

How old is the universe? Which option most closely says what you believe?

  • 1A: @14-17 billion years. The Bible is a spiritual guide, not a science book, and the purpose of its

  • 1B: @14-17 billion years. It is irrelevant what the Bible says about creation.

  • 1B: @14-17 billion years. It is irrelevant what the Bible says about anything.

  • 2A: @6000 years. Creation took 144 hours, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be disr

  • 2B: @12,000 years. Creation took 6000 years, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be d

  • 2C. @6,000 years. Gap theory (explained in post # 1).

  • 3A. @14-17 billion years. Gap theory (explained in post # 1).

  • 3B. @14-17 billion years. Each biblical "day" of creation is separated by ages or periods of time.

  • 3C. @14-17 billion years. Day-age theory (explained in post # 1).

  • 3D. @14-17 billion years. Creation was 144 hours measured at the speed of outward thrust of creative


Results are only viewable after voting.

Humanista

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Originally posted by Stormy
There is no scientific theory and evidence on the origination of life.

There is no evidence regarding the forming of the Universe.

Please correct me kindly if my statements are wrong.

I am having a rough day. LOL

There is an entire field of scientific investigation called abiogenesis. It focuses on how life might have begun. There are some theories being developed and evidence supporting the way certain amino acids react in certain environments, which the researchers think is quite promising. Just because the puzzle hasn't been solved *yet* doesn't mean no one is trying or having some successes.

 I am not qualified to explain in detail, but this information is available at places like talk.origins.

There is also a area of study called cosmology and they are always studying evidence left by the universe itself to formulate a theory as to origins.

Contrary to what you may believe, a theory cannot exist without evidence. What scientists do is examine the evidence FIRST, then try to figure out how it all fits together. The WAY the evidence fits together IS the theory.
 
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lithium.

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Originally posted by Stormy
There is no scientific theory and evidence on the origination of life.

There is no evidence regarding the forming of the Universe.

Please correct me kindly if my statements are wrong.

I am having a rough day. LOL

HEHE, but there is real evidence+proof that Evolution is real, and happens right now in every form of life.  But just to throw all the evidence out the door cause its not in the bible that is just wrong.  Evolution is a great thing there was once a Creature that was almost 6 foot tall and it was a beaver, and there was other animals that were really big.  But they Evolved to be the animals we see today.
 
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Chris H

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All evolution needs to work is descent with modification. Look at yourself and then look at your parents. Or if you'd rather, look at your own children. Different, eh? That's all evolution needs-change in living populations over time due to reproduction.

Which is why sexual repoduction makes evolution wor so much better. More diversity into the gene pool of a species in a shorter period of time.

Chris
 
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lithium.

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i agree with that
 
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I voted 1A). Those of you who know me are already aware that I am not a Christian. I think a point of clarification on what I think about the Bible may be in order. I think that the Bible is in part one example (if the most famous one) of "Man" (humans both male & female) presuming to speak for God.

The Bible is a group of writings in human language, written with the human hand using writing techniques available to humans at certain stages of human history. The oldest manuscripts we have carry the spelling errors, copying errors, difficulty of harmonization, etc., representative of human ability to produce the written word. These are facts that I doubt anyone here of faith or without it can dispute.

Yet, many modern humans carry on the great tradition of some of the authors of the Bible, insisting presumptiously that these works exhibiting every hallmark of human production are together the one and only True Word of God. If there is a God, surely this God is not pleased by human willingness to put words into the Divine Mouth.

A note - among believers, there are some who will tell you that they believe God over man (the Bible over science) on this or that issue. What they really mean is that they believe the men who tell them "God said this," or "God said that" over the men in the white jackets who don't feel the need to bolster their authority with an appeal to anything but the evidence.
 
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heusdens

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Is the issue of weather or not one believes in a creator the most important question?

The way science deals with the question, as regarding of how the universe came into existence and evoluted from then on to the world as we currently see, is not stating or excluding the possibilitie that there was a creator or not. In fact, there is no possible way in which science can rule out that issue in total (i.e. science has no "definite proof" of the existence or non-existence of a creator, nor will it ever have, no matter how complete our knowledge will be).
The scientific method and way of expression, can explain much, but fail to put the issue that rigourlously as that one can "bet ones life on it". A scientist doesn't say "Inflation theory is true, I'm ready to die for it"
(although scientists are humans too, and can not escape completely from adhering meanining to their discoveries and theories, like the saying from Einstein on the uncertainty principle "God is not playing dice")

Scientist can merely say, that a possible description of the universe is, that it came into existence from a primordal material field (a quantum fluctuation or gravitational field or any other quantum mechanical field) that "tunneled" into existence and gave rise to the existance of a material world and space/time framework as we consider this world we live in to be.
Nowhere the why question, as to why this happened, and what intention one can find in that, are answered by science. Science can just show how it could have happened, and make testable assumptions about it, which can be verified experimentally. No scientific knowledge or theory can ever be complete.

This means: people that answer the "why" question with the postulation of a creator, can not be held to state something that science could proof to be wrong. Science does not enter that debate. Science merely states that in order for it to make a viable theory, they don't need to have this postulate. And no scientist will ask us to believe the outcomes of their studies or to accept it without reason. That is why any theory is sharply debated and needs test results and have predictions, in order for it to be scientific. Scientist don't say "And then there was inflation, and the universe grew to inmense proportions in an instant" as mere statements without proof or theoretical fundaments to rely on. They don't say: in order for this theory to hold, you need to believe it. In order for a theory to hold or not, is ruled by other things as faith.
Science does not say that as a fundamental cause for anything existing in this world there was a quantummechanical gravitation field in an endless time/space framework outside or own, that causes our universe to come into being, like it came out of nothing, and ask us to pray for the quantum mechanical gravity field. Even though physic theory come up with something nothing less as a creation of the universe.

Theism does that, and let man believe in a creator, standing for this act of creation and all that followed. But theism does not explain any other thing as physical theory describes, but they put it in other terms/language as the physicist do, and adhere different meaning to it. It is of course a language not restricted to abstract and formal knowledge, but is in terms of what we as humans need or want to know about our being here. This is of course a human bound necessity. Even without knowledge of mathematics and/or physics, we need/want to know.
History has shown us different approaches towards this, in explaining in why we have come into being, and human kind developed different kind of belief systems (religions) that in their own terms explain us this.
The purpose of this is not any different as why humankind developed science, although the nature of the way it is explained is of course different. A belief system is a closed system, it tries to explain everything, and must accomodate for any question one asks. A Scientific theory and the way science works, can be thought as open, science develops, and science never comes up with a final answer, and can never answer all questions (all answers merely give rise to more new questions).
Science does not have absolute answers, valid for all times.
But inevitably, science produces more and more knowledge, which explain in more and more detail, how this evolving of this universe, and life on this planet, happened. And in some fields up to some extent that some parts may be best seen as truths, as that it is arguable that some outcomes of scientific study in some fields, are that well tested and accepted that it may well hold for very long, without any reasonable suspicion as that it would be replaced by something completely else. Like the theory of gravity is supposed to hold for a very long time, and maybe only in the aspect of the reunification with the other forces, can give rise to adaptations for some special situations (like the conditions that existed in the very early universe), but not as a replacement for the whole theory.
Yet, we have to be aware, that no matter how many well tested and proven theories we have, there are always infinite many undiscoverd truths, of which an infinite subset of truths for fundamental reasons, can never be discovered.

But is it worthwhile to make untestable and undefiable statements, postulating a deity or creator, in order to complement for our limited knowledge? And for what reason?

For what practical purposes. What can we do or not do, based on accepting such a postulate, which we can not do with our more mortal and limited virtues of developing scientific knowledge? Do we know more, or are we better humans, if we belief in a creator? Are we more human?
Or is it more human to reason on what we can know based on our limited capacities in all fields of knowledge that we can master.

And isn't it the more crucial issue on what you do on basis of your point of view or belief, then the point of view or belief itself?

Just some things to think about...
 
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heusdens

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I voted in the poll for the option in which states that what the Bible says is in every aspect irrelevant.

That is with some consideration, however, so let me try to explain.

Firstly: The Bible is of relevance to those who fundate their belief on, and who am I to deny them this fundament? (in other words: I can not (truely) say that the Bible is irrelevant, simply because for some people it is).
Secondly: Even though I do not myself rely on it, the very fact that other people rely on it, makes it even to me relevant. At least to the extent that it is relevant to know what the Bible says, explains, states or not says, explains, states.

To me, the Bible is of relevance of course, in the sense that it is thought of as of relevance to many, and not without meaning (to them at least, and in a lesser extent and in as far as I know Bible texts, to me also). But this relevance is relative, as there are other sources of information and knowledge, and I do not think of the Bible in the same way as those who fundate their belief on it, are thinking of it.

So, I merely went out from the question as of how much importance to me is what the Bible says in the way I fundate my own points of view or beliefs. And since I fundate my knowledge on other sources, I merely choose that answer. It is not a judgement by me on what the relevance of the Bible is to others, or a stament that (worldhistorically seen) it is an irrelevant book.
 
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Sinai

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Originally posted by Kookaburra
I chose 1A, I think that's right. All the different colors confoozle me....

Sorry, Kookaburra. I certainly wasn't trying to confuse you......or even to "confoozle" you. The colors were intended to help sort between the major divisions of choices or theories:

1. Those who tend to ignore what the Bible says with regard to creation, or who disbelieve it or discount it, and who support mainstream scientific theory and evidence regarding the forming of the universe, including our planet and the life found on planet Earth are printed in red;

2. Those who believe what the Bible says with regard to creation and who disbelieve or discount mainstream scientific findings and discoveries relating to creation are represented by green;
and

3. Those who believe what the Bible says with regard to creation and who also believe mainstream scientific findings and discoveries relating to creation are printed in blue.


A more complete discussion of each theory is presented in the first post on the first page of this thread. I hope that explanation helps.....
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Well, that would depend on how you define "true"...

If you mean that it is 100% literal truth, and has to be to be the word of God in your eyes then you've already lost long ago. There are internal conflicts and historical conflicts in the Bible that rule it out as a 100% error free document.

While as a Christian I agree that at least some parts were divinly inspired, it has been writen and rewriten by man so many times that you cannot guarantee any part is exactly what God had originaly ment it to be. Then there is interpretation... That muddies the water even more as far as truth goes.
 
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