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Reformed theology teaches justification by faith, the Bible teaches justification through faith. We are not justified when we believe but we lay hold on that justification that is already ours when we believe.I understand what you're saying brother, but try to remember that "saved" is a broad term that contains many facets. Salvation is an experience that extends from eternity past to eternity future, and contains many things: election, predestination, calling, justification, sanctification, glorification, etc.
Technically speaking, justification is by faith alone. During our lives, in time, when we exercise faith in Christ, we are "justified". Justification is usually the thing people are referring to when they say the word "saved"
Justification is the act of being declared innocent before God's court. Since justification is by faith, we cannot be eternally justified.
making this distinction helps, I think. What do you say?
As Paul tells us:
Romans 8:30-32
New International Version (NIV)
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Exactly!because God, the ONE that justified you, has known you before your existence! You're still focused on SELF, focus on GOD. But I've you this, you acknowledge that faith is from God, and I believe you're right on the money there.
Predestination puts focus on self, and that is the problem with it, even if predestinators don't believe they are, they must because they are "the chosen", you are NOT the chosen, Christ is the chosen one.
because God, the ONE that justified you, has known you before your existence! You're still focused on SELF, focus on GOD. But I've you this, you acknowledge that faith is from God, and I believe you're right on the money there.
We are to lay our lives down, IN HIM, He is the elect, not us.
Predestination: Some Definitions:
For the last five hundred years, the main differences in religion have been many, but one has caused more strife more so than any other has been the teachings and theology of John Calvin. No one man except Martin Luther has been hated and loathed more in the eyes of Catholicism than John Calvin. Even in the beliefs of Arminianism, there is utter hatred and loathing of John Calvin. And yet, no other theologian so defined the beliefs of Protestantism for the centuries to follow than John Calvin. But it should be noted here, that as stated previously, no one single man, no one single theologian, except our Lord Jesus Christ was ever 100 percent correct, 100 percent of the time. This rule of thumb applies as much to John Calvin as it does to so many others such as James Arminus, Augustine, all the Popes, Martin Luther, and anybody else you can think of. Having said that, let us proceed on.
John Calvin defined his doctrine of predestination as:
The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception. This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without a doubt subordinate to Gods eternal election. But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it,..To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction.[1]
These few sentences are what drive a wedge between most Christians. A wedge between Protestants and Catholics, even between Protestants themselves. Having shown what Calvin defined predestination as, lets proceed a little further and give a definition from a prominent dictionary.
One of the tools that have come to the surface in the last two hundred years for the student of Biblical Greek has been the introduction of, and subsequent translation of Gerhard Kittels Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. It is a shame that the Greek New Testament is lost to most who search the scriptures. The serious student of the Bible cannot go through this life without reading and seeing for themselves what the Greek text says and what the original writers intents were when they penned the words we hold so dear. When the student of the Bible begins to search the Greek texts, many of the scriptures become crystal clear. Having said that, let us look at the definition given in Kittels dictionary. From Rom. 8:29, we have the word: prow'pise(v). From the root word: proorizw, which means: to limit or mark out beforehand, predestine. According to the dictionary (Kittels), K. L. Schmidt comments:
This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense to foreordain to predestinate. Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopi'zein is a stronger form of opi'zein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: h ceir sou (Gods) kai h bolh prowpisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowpisen o qeov pro twn aiwnwn eiv doxan hmwn, 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proopisav hmav eis nioqesian dia Ihsou Cpistou, Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.[2]
So there you have it, predestination is the mode by which God used to conform the elect to the image of His Son, by which we (the elect) are appointed to divine sonship.
Some common misconceptions about Predestination:
A common misconception about predestination comes from Calvins statement: and others to destruction. If one would carefully read the texts that deal with predestination, one will see that in each case it deals with the elect. Note well that it never says one word about those outside election. Calvins theory about predestination seems to have come from studying Rom. 8; 11; and Eph. 1. Calvins comment about and others to destruction have been equated to reprobation and that this theory came from reading certain passages in Isaiah and Romans 9. But it is submitted that his observation on reprobation is incorrect. Those vessels fitted for destruction (Rom. 9:22) may very well be inclusive of those individuals in Biblical history who were used of God so that his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. (Rom. 9:22)
Some of which into this class may be classified: the antediluvians, Pharaoh, Esau, Goliath, Nebuchazzar, Belchazar, Judas, Herod Antepas, Pontius Pilate, Annas, and others at. al. It is submitted that these men were created in such manner, and in such way, that God, used them in His infinite wisdom, and according to His divine plan, so that His long-suffering with them, ultimately ended up proving the glory and power of Him through them. And it is further asserted that this is the case as in each instance Gods power and glory was made manifest to these individuals through the prophets.
Another misconception people have about predestination is as most commonly heard: Predestination makes people nothing but robots, who can do nothing other than what God has ordained for them in their lives. In other words, people have had their whole life foreordained by God, even down to the minute detail so that everything that happens in their lives was foreordained by God to happen. If they went left instead of right that was foreordained by God. This is the argument most commonly used by the supporters of Catholicism and Arminianism. Those poor misguided people, again, another misconception on their part. If one would take the time to carefully read and study the topic of predestination with an open mind, and not bring their preconceived notions and beliefs into the subject, they would rightly find that just the opposite is true. What the doctrine of predestination does teach, say, and mean is that at some point outside of our conception of time, God choose us to be His for no other reason than it was according to His good pleasure to do so. Predestination sets who the elect are, and the means by which they come to salvation (Jesus Christ), but it never sets when they will come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For some, they come to saving faith early on their lives, some come during the peak of their lives, and some come to saving faith in the twilight of their lives.
Case in point, Noah. It is certain that Noah was predestinated to be among the elect. In the generations of man that followed Adam, the first mention of Noah is in Gen. 5: 29. And the next mention of Noah is when he is five hundred years old and begat sons. Now what happened during those first five hundred years the Bible never says, but it is very clear that around his five hundredth birthday, the Lord began to use Noah. Noah lived in a very wicked and evil world. (Gen. 6:5) And at five hundred years old, God: hath begun a good work. (Phil. 1:6) See here, God predestinated Noah, that much is certain, but God never set a certain time as to when He would begin to use Noah. Noah came late in life.
Let us further illustrate by looking at another person who was certainly predestinated. This may come as a surprise to some, but the great patriarch of faith in the Bible, Abraham, came out of a country that was idol worshippers. We can safely say that because of what we know to be said in the scriptures of the account of Jacob and Rachel. Rachel goes to her fathers tent and steals an idol and then proceeds to hide it. (Gen. 31:19) This incident clearly shows that there were idols, they were cherished, and that Abrahams cousins, who remained behind when he left the land of the Chaldees, had continued to follow the gods from which Abraham had been called.
Abraham was predestinated, elected to be one of Gods. What happened prior to God calling Abraham into service, we cannot say for sure, but we can say that at around fifty years old, God, hath began a good work in Abraham, and He saw it through until it came to fruition. Abraham came in the peak of his life.
Another example would be King David. David was the youngest of eight sons born to Jessie. The prophet Samuel was sent to Jessie because the Lord told him that from one of the sons of Jessie there would be anointed a king. And this happened after all of Jessies sons were made to pass in front of Samuel. David was anointed as King when but a youth. And soon afterward, God: hath began a good work. And furthermore, He seen it through until fruition. David was for certain predestinated.
So here in these three examples, we see predestination in what the scriptures say. Predestination simply says whom and how the elect are, but never places a time limit on when they would come to Him, only that they would. Noah was five hundred years old and a preacher of righteousness (Gen. 5:32; 2 Pet. 2:5) when he came into the Lords service. Abraham was about fifty years old and living among idol worshippers when God told him: Get thee out (Gen 12:1). David was but a youth when God began to use him as king (1 Sam. 16:13). Some come early, some come in the middle, and some come late, but God did not interfere with their lives before they came to Him.
But the Apostle Paul / The Bible makes a distinction between predestination and justification, and we should too.
There is a distinction, they are different things (not the same thing), so we should view them as such
I am trying to make the point that Jesus is the chosen ONE, He is the elect and those IN Christ are the elect, ONLY because of Christ IN us us, He is the One.So, according to your statement here, we must conclude that since Christ "is the elect":
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -Mt. 24:22 (KJV)
Those days would be shortened for Christ's sake not ours.
Uh huh.
God Bless
Till all are one.
And did I say they were the same thing? NO.But the Apostle Paul / The Bible makes a distinction between predestination and justification, and we should too.
There is a distinction, they are different things (not the same thing), so we should view them as such
Very nicely said. Amen!I really don't see that any of these are mutually exclusive. God's omniscience guarantees that everything is known before it happens. He knows when we will be presented with choices and the choices we will make but we still have to recognize opportunities and make them a reality through action. We make choices. God does not put us on like hand puppets and remove that.
Very nicely said. Amen!
Predestination and Free Will are both bibical, both are true, it is God offering and us accepting!
Once again, everything God does is according to His foreknowledge
God knew who would come to His Son
I also ask the question, what glory do you think your bringing to God by declaring that He only loves certain individuals?
I will never understand why anyone would try to say that God creates certain people for no other reason than to send them to hell forever.
I know that He knows who will and who won't, but to try and say that the God of love would pre-plan someone's eternal destruction before they are even born, and give them no chance whatsoever for salvation is one of the biggest heresies I've ever heard.
I want you to remember that when your praying for your loved ones. Why are you even praying for them? If God wants them, He will force Himself on them anyway.
Think on this for a while; if God condemns people to hell for not believing, but it is He Himself who causes them to not believe, than He is punishing them for something that He caused to happen. That would be like me punishing my daughter because I told her not to spill the paint, but then I knocked it out of her hand just so I could punish her.
He gives everyone a chance for salvation, once again you cannot argue with Acts 17:26-30 or 1st Timothy 2:3-6
I have two responses Robert:
1) assuming what you say is true, that God doesn't look "forward" into time, but rather, simply already knows, and has always known who has faith in him (and so elects on that basis), why do "Free will" salvation people (aka arminians and such) use verses in the Bible that speak of Gods "foreknowledge" as prooftexts for that very idea?
But let me ask you, why does it take away the Glory of God in salvation if when God calls a sinner the sinner then chooses to either say yes or no to Gods call? If the sinner chooses to say yes to Gods call and is then saved does that some how negate the fact that God called and because he called the person was saved? Doesnt God still get all the glory? I would say yes, he does, because if it were not for God extending grace and mercy to that individual then he would never have been save
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