What do we want?

[MorkandMindy]

In the US we look back fondly at the 1950s and 1960s. Or at the 1970s when the wealth was really coming through, but the problems were becoming visible.

The Conservatives want to go back to then and the Progressives want to go forward to recreate that life again as soon as possible. And one President made it his motto to Make America Great Again - 'Again refers to when? - I'll guess it's the 50s and 60s.

So we want to go there by going forward, backward or sideways.

We all want the same thing but have very different ideas of how to get it.

If we can start talking about what we want maybe we can agree on how to get it.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

We all want the same thing but have very different ideas of how to get it.

No, we don't. As G.K. Chesterton said, doctors look at a sick man, and though they may disagree on what they problem is, they always agree on what a healthy man should look like. Sociologists look at a sick society and agree on what the sickness is, but they never agree on what a healthy society should look like.

The left pushed us into homosexual marriage, infanticide, recreational drug use, the normalization of fornication, and serial monogamy. They are pushing for the government to take ever-increasing chunks of our paycheck and spend it on whatever the controlling power thinks we need (or uses the money to advance their own personal wealth). The left has no destination in mind. They only have a direction. When we get to where they're taking us, they will continue to take us somewhere else.

The right wants marriage, real marriage. We want just one, involving one man and one woman. We don't want to fool around. We don't want to murder our babies. We don't need to go on a drug trip. We don't want the government to take our money, and we don't need what the government would give us. We only want the government to start following its own rules, for once, and stick to the powers delineated in the Constitution. The right has a destination in mind. It was a time back before the sexual revolution, when the generation was the greatest, when we didn't go to war unless Congress declared it, when we were tough enough to beat a Great Depression, courageous enough to stop Hitler, and able to be happy without a smart phone in our hands. Those were the days before the Baby Boomers blasted our society, when they traded in their red wagons for red pills.

No, we're not taking two different routes to the same place. One is grasping at straws to stay in one place, and the other is dragging him forever in one direction, until they both fall off a cliff.

 

[Monksailor]

I do not think it is a time which the conservatives want to go to but rather they yearn for a society where the general consensus is one of honor and respect of our country and the the Constitution thereof as opposed to one whose agenda seems to be to constantly chip away at these till all Christian semblance is removed and a govmt is in place which will have exploited the result of this chipping away which will inadvertently include freedoms and liberties and impose and ram rod policies and programs against the will of the people.

I do not think that our founding fathers perceived that our country would or could ever become a majority population which worships idols and false gods or one which might choose a government deviant from a true democracy, but..... But they were mindful of the liberties, freedoms, and pursuit of happiness of which they wanted their citizens to enjoy. They just were not mindful enough that some people/cultures enjoy murdering thousands in the name of a god or would use the liberties and freedoms as a protection screen to operate covertly within our own nation and to plan to overthrow it or to lobby and vote into law what God regards as murder, perversion, and greed.

With the dimming of the World Wars and such where the death tolls were unimaginable in today's standards so also is the dimming of the appreciation of the cost of our freedoms and liberties and the ability to actually pursue happiness. These wonderful things are being taken for granted and when such is done with anything, it is only one quick step from being lost. Such patriotism and commitment to Godly things is what is yearned for, not a time era, and with our work and prayer and GOD'S help it IS possible again. There will be a great cost though, I am afraid.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no way to get what we really want through politics.
Matthew 26:11

 

[Kentonio]

No, we don't. As G.K. Chesterton said, doctors look at a sick man, and though they may disagree on what they problem is, they always agree on what a healthy man should look like. Sociologists look at a sick society and agree on what the sickness is, but they never agree on what a healthy society should look like.

The left pushed us into homosexual marriage, infanticide, recreational drug use, the normalization of fornication, and serial monogamy. They are pushing for the government to take ever-increasing chunks of our paycheck and spend it on whatever the controlling power thinks we need (or uses the money to advance their own personal wealth). The left has no destination in mind. They only have a direction. When we get to where they're taking us, they will continue to take us somewhere else.

The right wants marriage, real marriage. We want just one, involving one man and one woman. We don't want to fool around. We don't want to murder our babies. We don't need to go on a drug trip. We don't want the government to take our money, and we don't need what the government would give us. We only want the government to start following its own rules, for once, and stick to the powers delineated in the Constitution. The right has a destination in mind. It was a time back before the sexual revolution, when the generation was the greatest, when we didn't go to war unless Congress declared it, when we were tough enough to beat a Great Depression, courageous enough to stop Hitler, and able to be happy without a smart phone in our hands. Those were the days before the Baby Boomers blasted our society, when they traded in their red wagons for red pills.

No, we're not taking two different routes to the same place. One is grasping at straws to stay in one place, and the other is dragging him forever in one direction, until they both fall off a cliff.

Sorry but that’s pish, adultery, fornifaction, drug abuse and abortion are as old as society itself, the idea that they are modern affections is laughable.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

No, we don't. As G.K. Chesterton said, doctors look at a sick man, and though they may disagree on what they problem is, they always agree on what a healthy man should look like. Sociologists look at a sick society and agree on what the sickness is, but they never agree on what a healthy society should look like.

The left pushed us into homosexual marriage, infanticide, recreational drug use, the normalization of fornication, and serial monogamy. They are pushing for the government to take ever-increasing chunks of our paycheck and spend it on whatever the controlling power thinks we need (or uses the money to advance their own personal wealth). The left has no destination in mind. They only have a direction. When we get to where they're taking us, they will continue to take us somewhere else.

The right wants marriage, real marriage. We want just one, involving one man and one woman. We don't want to fool around. We don't want to murder our babies. We don't need to go on a drug trip. We don't want the government to take our money, and we don't need what the government would give us. We only want the government to start following its own rules, for once, and stick to the powers delineated in the Constitution. The right has a destination in mind. It was a time back before the sexual revolution, when the generation was the greatest, when we didn't go to war unless Congress declared it, when we were tough enough to beat a Great Depression, courageous enough to stop Hitler, and able to be happy without a smart phone in our hands. Those were the days before the Baby Boomers blasted our society, when they traded in their red wagons for red pills.

No, we're not taking two different routes to the same place. One is grasping at straws to stay in one place, and the other is dragging him forever in one direction, until they both fall off a cliff.

Cool story. Except, I remember it was a conservative Supreme Court that decided Roe v. Wade 7-2 with only one of the 6 Republican appointed Justices voting against. And it was during a Republican Administration to boot. I remember Ronald Reagan passing a very large tax increase, so large that Hank Williams Jr. even included it in a song. I remember reading George H. W. Bush’s lips when he said “No new Taxes”. I remember Newt getting all bent out of shape over Clinton’s adultery when he was doing the same. I remember Republicans taking my tax dollars and spending them on endless wars, just like the Democrats. I remember when Donald Trump had just one wife, that was two wives ago. I live in west Michigan, a place that is so red that it makes the flag of the former Soviet Union look blue, yet we have marijuana dispensaries on every corner and they are full of people. What I don’t remember is any of our supporters of Donald Trump returning the checks he signed back to the government and telling them we don’t want any socialist handouts. Like I said, real cool story.

 

[jayem]

No, we don't. As G.K. Chesterton said, doctors look at a sick man, and though they may disagree on what they problem is, they always agree on what a healthy man should look like. Sociologists look at a sick society and agree on what the sickness is, but they never agree on what a healthy society should look like.

The left pushed us into homosexual marriage, infanticide, recreational drug use, the normalization of fornication, and serial monogamy. They are pushing for the government to take ever-increasing chunks of our paycheck and spend it on whatever the controlling power thinks we need (or uses the money to advance their own personal wealth). The left has no destination in mind. They only have a direction. When we get to where they're taking us, they will continue to take us somewhere else.

The right wants marriage, real marriage. We want just one, involving one man and one woman. We don't want to fool around. We don't want to murder our babies. We don't need to go on a drug trip. We don't want the government to take our money, and we don't need what the government would give us. We only want the government to start following its own rules, for once, and stick to the powers delineated in the Constitution. The right has a destination in mind. It was a time back before the sexual revolution, when the generation was the greatest, when we didn't go to war unless Congress declared it, when we were tough enough to beat a Great Depression, courageous enough to stop Hitler, and able to be happy without a smart phone in our hands. Those were the days before the Baby Boomers blasted our society, when they traded in their red wagons for red pills.

No, we're not taking two different routes to the same place. One is grasping at straws to stay in one place, and the other is dragging him forever in one direction, until they both fall off a cliff.

To put it bluntly, the self-righteousness oozing from this post is staggering.

One question: Why does it matter to you what consenting adults do in their bedrooms?

 

[jacks]

In the US we look back fondly at the 1950s and 1960s. Or at the 1970s when the wealth was really coming through, but the problems were becoming visible.

The Conservatives want to go back to then and the Progressives want to go forward to recreate that life again as soon as possible. And one President made it his motto to Make America Great Again - 'Again refers to when? - I'll guess it's the 50s and 60s.

So we want to go there by going forward, backward or sideways.

We all want the same thing but have very different ideas of how to get it.

If we can start talking about what we want maybe we can agree on how to get it.

At a very fundamental level, we all probably want the same things. Food, shelter, health, love, happiness, family, security, religious freedom, etc. (Maybe summed up with Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness?) I think maybe we need to get back to basics in order to find common ground and work on positive, inclusive steps to reach those goals. And try to avoid focusing on what is wrong with the "other guy", because we are all flawed.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I tried this thought experiment, if a person's total wealth was one million dollars (house, car etc) would they flip a coin to get either:

Heads: another million dollars
or
Tails: lose everything they have

If say a thousand people did that, overall they would have the same amount of assets afterword as before, and overall would they be happier?

 

[Nithavela]

In the US we look back fondly at the 1950s and 1960s.

I think a pretty big part of the US population is not looking back to those decades all too fondly.

 

[Nithavela]

I tried this thought experiment, if a person's total wealth was one million dollars (house, car etc) would they flip a coin to get either:

Heads: another million dollars
or
Tails: lose everything they have

If say a thousand people did that, overall they would have the same amount of assets afterword as before, and overall would they be happier?

Obviously not. Wealth has diminishing returns in regards to happyness. Going from being broke to one million means finanial stability, security, the opportunity to invest and to plan for the future instead of living from hand to mouth. Going from one to two million is still a substantial increase, but far less so. Going from 100 million to 101 million barely registers.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The prosperity of the 50's and 60's was due to the strongest middle class our nation has ever seen. In turn, that was due to the social safety nets set up a decade or two earlier coming to maturity as well as taxation that encouraged middle class to keep more of their money while taxing the wealthy a proportionately larger share. It was well balanced because the middle class was very strong yet the incentive to strive to become wealthy remained strong as well.

What you see today is that the conservatives ostensibly want that same strong middle class but they believe that giving every break to the wealthiest individuals and corporations a the expense of middle class Americans is the way to do it. I don't know why they think that as it was proven in the 50's and 60's that taking a little more from the wealthiest to bolster the middle class was how it worked. Since the 80's we have been doin the opposite and the middle class has become so weak it's almost non-existent compared to the 50's and 60's. Today, we have wealthy and poor classes along with slightly-better-off-poor and slightly-less-well-off rich people.

If you do the math you see this is true. Look at the costs of items, costs of homes and cars, cost of college and see how they have skyrocketed and then look at the average and median incomes. Look at how the middle class is shrinking, how middle class savings for emergencies, retirement, and investment has shrunken or is even non-existent for millions while the wealth of the wealthiest is increasing exponentially.

So, from where I sit, going with a "liberal" agenda is about bringing back fairness and building a very strong middle class - a TRUE middle class - which in turn will alleviate many of the other problems. With more opportunity for a good life that comes with a strong middle class we would see a decrease in many of the ills and crimes in the nation. It will never be perfect, you can't get rid of all problems, but a strong middle class and a society that takes care of people rather than focusing on greed for money is going to benefit us as individuals and as a whole.

As for the "morality" issues, I see those as false flags used by either side to garner votes from their more radical bases. For example, with marriage the conservatives love to appeal to their more extremist base on this issue as if the nation has lost "traditional marriage" because of gays and gay marriage. In reality, nothing is ever done by them to defend "traditional marriage" and in fact most of them are to blame for the decrease of "traditional marriage" because for decades they did nothing to legislate against adultery, re-marriage after divorce, etc. For decades "traditional marriage" suffered greatly from heterosexuals who didn't care about what marriage is or should be, yet as soon as gay people wanted "marriage" they all of a sudden pretended there was some kind of sacred "traditional marriage" which would be destroyed, as if it weren't already.

But in short, conservatives of today don't really want to go back to the 50's and 60's - they want the benefit of the strong middle class and resulting strong economy of the 50's and 60's but they want that without the factors that made it happen, like tiered taxation that took more from the wealthy, big social safety nets, strong unions and organized labor, etc. The progressives of today want at least a return to the economic fairness of the 50's and 60's which resulted in a strong middle class and strong nation.

 

[lasthero]

The right wants marriage, real marriage. We want just one, involving one man and one woman.

And yet, somehow, you chose a man with three wives as your standard bearer.

I sometimes wish the gay marriage issue hadn't been settled by the time Trump took office. We were robbed of the supreme irony of him trying to argue for the sanctity of marriage.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Obviously not. Wealth has diminishing returns in regards to happyness. Going from being broke to one million means finanial stability, security, the opportunity to invest and to plan for the future instead of living from hand to mouth. Going from one to two million is still a substantial increase, but far less so. Going from 100 million to 101 million barely registers.

Yet our entire economy is based on the opposite assumption.

 

[apogee]

We live in a world where the American Dream has become a global nightmare, not that America is really to blame, you can blame the UK and their pesky Industrial Revolution that fundamentally set us all on the course that we are now on, with our modern industrialized societies and their insatiable appetite for expansion and progress, and now every Brazil, China, Malaysia, etc. wants its own dream.

There was probably a golden age, where this expansion was almost matched by a seeming boundless supply of resources. That age has passed, the call to go west, is now just a siren call to the sea, where we all drown in our own detritus.

 

[MorkandMindy]

"The world has enough for everyone's needs, but not everyone's greed" - Mohandas Gandhi

The US average income is the twelfth highest in the World at $55,351 but 15% of the population have no healthcare insurance at all, and many are under insured.

This is a country with enough for everyone but run by the rich and for the rich (see Gilens and Page)

 

[mark46]

I think a pretty big part of the US population is not looking back to those decades all too fondly.

I have two answers.

For me, the best years were 1980-2000, a period of relative stability, especially in politics.

The better answer is that the best is yet to come.

 

[jayem]

I have two answers.

For me, the best years were 1980-2000, a period of relative stability, especially in politics.

The better answer is that the best is yet to come.

What I recall most about the 80s, is high levels of inflation, answered with sky-high interest rates imposed by Paul Volcker and the Fed. The first home I ever owned was a condo that I bought in 1981. Fortunately, I had good credit, a decent income, and had no trouble getting a mortgage. At 15.75%. (Though I was earning 10-11% in a money market fund.) But inflation was checked. Then there was the pandemic of the day, that back then was called AIDS. Which for 5 years, Pres. Reagan never even mentioned until Nancy's movie buddy Rock Hudson died. But I also met my wife in 1984 and we were married in 1987. And are still together after 33 years. That's life--the bad and the good.

Sorry for going off topic.