What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

Lulav · Jun 26, 2015

ContraMundum said:
How do these present a problem to your way of thinking, Lulav?

To my mind, these are all saying the same basic thing- sometime after the Sabbath, when it was the first day of the week, probably around dawn when there was still darkness around, Mary M and co. went to the tomb. They don't actually contradict each other at all. John doesn't say exactly how dark it was, Luke says it's early dawn, and Matthew in his typical Hebraic way seems to saying "as it began to dawn toward the first of the week" in the same manner as the Mishna says "on the light, (or night) of day x" to mean "dawn" (and that portion is better translated as "at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths")

All saying the same thing, really. Just in different ways and they appear to me to be complimentary, not contradictory.

Did I say it did? You need to add them all together and what sum I get is that it was around Havdallah time. I get that from the

Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week

and

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark,

The beginning of the first of the week is right after sundown from Shabbat, it is dark then, it was not at sunrise like many celebrate it to be.

Matthew to me is the clearest to say it was what we call Havdallah time. The hour extended for the joy of Shabbat.

Ken Rank · Jun 26, 2015

Lulav said:
Did I say it did? You need to add them all together and what sum I get is that it was around Havdallah time. I get that from the

Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week

and

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark,

The beginning of the first of the week is right after sundown from Shabbat, it is dark then, it was not at sunrise like many celebrate it to be.

Matthew to me is the clearest to say it was what we call Havdallah time. The hour extended for the joy of Shabbat.

Interesting... I don't take it that way. It can also mean, "As it began to get light on the first day of the week." And with Mary M, she got there just before dawn.... it was still dark but it was about to change.

pat34lee · Jun 26, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Pat... Moses was indeed taught in Egypt. But to make your point, you now need to show the biblical evidence that Moses taught the Israelites the Egyptian methods and you can't do that because those things don't exist in Scripture.

It wasn't as if the Hebrews had just spent the weekend in Egypt. They were there for centuries. There is nothing to indicate that they acted any different than the Egyptians by the time they left.

Every land had their own system of measurement and standards. You don't just make up a foot when there is a king who sets the standard. People ended up in prisons or dead for false measures.

ContraMundum · Jun 27, 2015

Lulav said:
Did I say it did? You need to add them all together and what sum I get is that it was around Havdallah time. I get that from the

Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week

and

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark,

The beginning of the first of the week is right after sundown from Shabbat, it is dark then, it was not at sunrise like many celebrate it to be.

Matthew to me is the clearest to say it was what we call Havdallah time. The hour extended for the joy of Shabbat.

Ahh...ok....got it!

Norbert L · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You have taken this to mean his body, we count from the time his body reaches the grave, according to your method of reckoning. But the body is not relevant in that sense, the soul is.

Acts 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.

The above is a quote from Psalm 16:10... his nephesh (soul) in sheol (hades, hell, grave). You're counting from the time his body is buried, but his reference to Jonah, along with Acts 2:27, show we count from the time he passed. "My holy one" is messiah, and his nephesh, not his body, is what is mentioned in the prophesy.

Shalom!
Ken

So how do you see the reference in Genesis 2:7 where dust from the ground (the body) is equated to a living soul. This would allow the definition of a body as being a living soul that when it dies it can be buried, would it not?

Hoshiyya · Jun 27, 2015

Soul and spirit probably have multiple definitions, as well as being potentially overlapping. Animals are called "souls", which is usually translated as "creatures" in Gen. 1 for example.

Ken Rank · Jun 27, 2015

pat34lee said:
It wasn't as if the Hebrews had just spent the weekend in Egypt. They were there for centuries. There is nothing to indicate that they acted any different than the Egyptians by the time they left.

Every land had their own system of measurement and standards. You don't just make up a foot when there is a king who sets the standard. People ended up in prisons or dead for false measures.

Had you stated it this way the first time I doubt I would have commented. The way you said it first sounded more like the Israelites adopting pagan practices. So, that said... I agree with you in that they clearly would have understood the Egyptian ways yet at the same time we see in the exodus a picture that I enjoy gleaning from and it is one you surely have seen. We have the deliverer going into Egypt (the world) to deliver the Israelites. They begin a journey that takes them through the waters, a picture of baptism. The Torah comes down from the mountain on the day the Spirit would later be poured out and the information that came down was not just the words of the covenant but the instructions that they would learn and walk in... discipleship. My point is simply, God would undo the Egyptian ways and teach them His ways.

Shalom.
Ken

Ken Rank · Jun 27, 2015

Norbert L said:
So how do you see the reference in Genesis 2:7 where dust from the ground (the body) is equated to a living soul. This would allow the definition of a body as being a living soul that when it dies it can be buried, would it not?

I see God making a body and then breathing that life in it and the combination becomes a living soul. Is that breath of life the same which would go back to God (hence "into your hands I commend my spirit") or is it purely a part of God that sustains us? I don't know... I tend to think the consciousness/ ability to reason and remember are also the result of the body and breath and I tend to see that aspect of our life as being the soul and perhaps what went into hades to take the keys of death and hell (metaphoric as I doubt there are literal keys, but still). But in the end, I have no answer I am REALLY comfortable giving on this... I tend to see no life until the resurrection but I am not 100% confident at all. I figure Norbert, that when I die and close my eyes, I will either see Yeshua in heaven or coming in the clouds. I tend to lean toward the latter but regardless, when I die and close my eyes my next sight will be him so either way I am content!

Lulav · Jun 27, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Further proof that God isn't all that fussed about appearing to be hyper-Jewish. Hyper-Jewing each other is more of a modern thing, really.

Not sure what this has to do with the post you quoted??

Lulav · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I don't desire to debate you or anyone else. You seem a little combative today, looking for something to argue over, perhaps? ( I say this still not knowing you... you just might be one of those "matter of fact" types and I need to get used to it.) You're welcome to believe whatever you want, I am really fine with that! I will just add this....

No I am not being combative, sorry you see it that way. Yes I am a detailed oriented person that is adamant about the truth of a matter. You want to get to know me better and more quickly and accurately let me say I am an INFJ and you won't come across many of us (OH is as well) so we are a bit of an enigma.

INFJs are gentle, caring, complex and highly intuitive individuals. Artistic and creative, they live in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities. Only one percent of the population has an INFJ Personality Type, making it the most rare of all the types. They know things intuitively, without being able to pinpoint why, and without detailed knowledge of the subject at hand. They are usually right, and they usually know it. Consequently, INFJs put a tremendous amount of faith into their instincts and intuitions. Because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions. They believe that they're right. On the other hand, INFJ is a perfectionist who doubts that they are living up to their full potential. They have strong value systems, and need to live their lives in accordance with what they feel is right.

Take that as you will.

Ken Rank said:
It is well accepted and has been for a very long time that "3 days and nights" or "3 days" is an IDIOM that would include ANY PART of 3 days or 3 days and nights, in succession. And it's use is evident in Scripture....

Esther 4:16: "Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish."

Esther 5:1: On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

I don't see how this shores up your position. Esther tells them not to eat or drink either night of day for three days. This is not the same as three days and three nights. But besides that she has given the proper understanding of how a day in Biblical understanding (Jewish) of the 'day' beginning at night. So night and day = 1 night and day = 2 night and day =3,, on the third day she went to the kings hall.

Lulav · Jun 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
Yes it is a big difference, and you are mistaken.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

How does this contradict what I said? what am I mistaken of , what Jesus himself said about the sign?

Lulav · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Respectfully, I think you take every word in English literally and as if that was the word spoken at the time. We are 2000 years and 3-4 languages after the fact. Yeshua said, "If you destroy this temple (his body) in three days I will raise it." I have shown multiple examples of "3 days" being used not in the manner we tend to use it. In fact Christian and Jewish scholars for ages have known this is idiomatic. I have shown the bible use the words "4 days" and be speaking of basically 72 hours. If you don't accept those as fact, which is fine you certainly have that right, then we cannot continue discussion (on this) because our definitions do not align in a way that will allow us to communicate in a manner that will allow for a joint conclusion. Not a big deal... nobody said we had to agree on everything.

That said... I do want to point this out and leave it alone...

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

You have taken this to mean his body, we count from the time his body reaches the grave, according to your method of reckoning. But the body is not relevant in that sense, the soul is.

Acts 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.

The above is a quote from Psalm 16:10... his nephesh (soul) in sheol (hades, hell, grave). You're counting from the time his body is buried, but his reference to Jonah, along with Acts 2:27, show we count from the time he passed. "My holy one" is messiah, and his nephesh, not his body, is what is mentioned in the prophesy.

Shalom!
Ken

So now you want to change it by arguing body and soul? What was raised?

I am counting from the time frame Yeshua himself gave. that should usurp anything else.

Lulav · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Even here, in Acts 10 we read that Luke recorded how an angel appeared to Cornelius at “about the ninth hour of the day” (approximately 3:00 p.m.; Acts 10:3). “The next day” (10:9) Peter received a vision from God and welcomed visitors sent by Cornelius. “On the next day” (10:23) Peter and the servants of Cornelius departed for Caesarea. “And the following day they entered Caesarea” where Peter taught Cornelius and his household the Gospel (10:24). At one point during Peter’s visit, Cornelius spoke about his encounter with the angel of God. Notice carefully how he began the rehearsal of the event. He stated: “Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour…” (10:30, NASB). Although the event actually had occurred only 72 hours (or three literal days) earlier, Cornelius spoke of it as taking place “four days ago to this hour.”

Ken Rank said:
By the way, my post that included Acts 10 and the "4 days" that is really about 72 hours, can you address that? Thanks!

Lulav said:
OK, let's go through this together.

Cornelius has a vision on, let's say on a Monday at 3pm
At around 4 pm he calls in his servants, explains what he saw and heard and then sends them to Joppa. Now he is in Ceasaria but we aren't sure which one, the difference in the distance could be as much as 60 miles, however we see them arrive the next day.

He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon.....................And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier 8 And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

9 <1161> On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

On Tuesday around noon, the servants are coming close to Joppa meanwhile Peter goes up to the roof to pray.
After praying and having his vision while contemplating it

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

So let's say the vision and the men finding the house brought it to around 1pm Tuesday, Peter hears their story and then

23 Then called he them in, and lodged [them]. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

they stayed overnight with Peter and left the next day. Thursday

They must have stayed overnight somewhere because next we read

2 4 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. Friday

30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house

So I am getting four days here, from Monday at 3pm to Friday when they arrived.

Ken Rank said:
By the way, my post that included Acts 10 and the "4 days" that is really about 72 hours, can you address that? Thanks!

I have addressed this as you asked Ken, why after two pages of responses to others entering into the discussion afterwards have you not acknowledged it?

pat34lee · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
My point is simply, God would undo the Egyptian ways and teach them His ways.

Shalom.
Ken

He did. Starting with the more important items, such as how to worship him and keep his commands. Weights and measures were probably lower, and making their own standards would not matter much until they got settled in the land.

Ken Rank · Jun 27, 2015

Lulav said:
So now you want to change it by arguing body and soul? What was raised?

I am counting from the time frame Yeshua himself gave. that should usurp anything else.

I didn't change anything around... the counting didn't start from the time his body entered the grave because CLEARLY whatever our understanding of soul or spirit is... what was in sheol in the Psalm that was quoted in the NT was not the body... he was dead three days and nights. Thursday at 3:00PM through sometime before sunrise on what we call Sunday. If you see it another way, that's fine. These debates would amuse me if they weren't so darn sad! We have everyone in agreement that he was dead 3 days and nights but some simply have counted differently than others and yet we divide and cause strife over this. Father isn't pleased when it comes to that, I know that much!

Ken Rank · Jun 27, 2015

pat34lee said:
He did. Starting with the more important items, such as how to worship him and keep his commands. Weights and measures were probably lower, and making their own standards would not matter much until they got settled in the land.

Well, you are back to speculating which is fine... we all have our opinions and all we are doing is trying to fill in the pieces. You might be correct, might not... in the grand picture I would think this aspect of this discussion isn't very high on the priority list.

Norbert L · Jun 27, 2015

Lulav said:
I have addressed this as you asked Ken, why after two pages of responses to others entering into the discussion afterwards have you not acknowledged it?

There are probably more pages about the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua on CF than most members can count other than Gxg (G²)

pat34lee · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, you are back to speculating which is fine... we all have our opinions and all we are doing is trying to fill in the pieces. You might be correct, might not... in the grand picture I would think this aspect of this discussion isn't very high on the priority list.

True. I just like to apply reason to what I read in the scriptures. Whatever else the scriptures are about, they are about the lives of the people of Israel. They went through many of the same things we do today, so it helps to understand them.

jerry kelso · Jun 27, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I will only comment on this since we are just speaking from two different places right now. I do appreciate the time you put into your post. The idea of "saved" in today's culture, and salvation in that day, are not a perfect equal match. When we see the word 'saved' we THINK eternal salvation, and while that is part of it, we have stopped there, pitched a tent, and missed the rest of the picture. If you go to Romans 9:27 for example, you will see that "all Israel will be saved." You would consider that to mean eternal salvation, but... he is quoting Isaiah 10:22 which lacks the word "saved" in English AND Hebrew. It is the word teshuvah, actually a form of it, but it means "to return." Salvation includes the idea of eternity but it ALSO includes God fulfilling all of His promises which includes calling Israel back out of the nations where He drove them and bringing them to the land that is their inheritance. This promise begins in Deut. 30:1-6 and continues throughout the words of almost every prophet culminating in some ways for me, in Hosea who tells the whole story through the names of his children. And in chapter 1 verse 11, we see that when the two houses come back together they will appoint for themselves one head.. and a united Israel has not had a king since Solomon... Yeshua will be that king!

So the lost sheep are those not saved... from the nations they were scattered into.

ken,

1. Ezekiel 37 talks about the regathering and the two sticks of Israel and Judah being made one forever. In Revelation 12 it does say that Israel who is the sun clothed woman will be protected for 3 and 1/2 years and the remnant of her seed goes fleeing into other parts are saved. Zechariah 13 says 2/3 will be cut off and 1/3 will be refined. The point of all Israel being saved is not just to regather them back alone but to put the law in their hearts and wash their sins away and like Isaiah said to make them a nation born in one day.
Yeshua will be that King over the whole earth and David will be King over Israel and the apostles will rule over the 12 tribes and Abraham etc.
2. Paul understood the covenant with Israel for he was a jew too and knew God had not forgotten them. The Abrahamic covenant is about the land they were promised and they must be regathered to that. Genesis 15. This is why Jesus said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. And the Davidic kingdom was about being at the head of the nations as in Isaiah 2:2-4, 9:6-7. Both of these covenants are unconditional in the fact they will happen. However, they were always conditioned by obedience and repentance before God. The message of the Kingdom of Heaven was Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Conditional and unconditional go hand in hand. God bless! Jerry kelso

JeffTheLearner · Jun 28, 2015

(Isa 26:19) Messiah is The Head (the bridegroom/First fruits Col 1:18) and the body (the "church"-assembly/the bride) will rise on the 3rd day ..."a day is as a thousand years" Psalms 90:4, 2Peter 3:8 (also Adam did not attain 1000 years 1day "in that day you shall surely die")

"Lift up your eyes all around, and see: all these gather themselves together, and come to You. As I live,” says YHVH, “You shall surely clothe Yourself with them all as with an ornament, and dress Yourself with them, like a bride." ~(Isaiah 49:18)

"For just as a young man marries a virgin, so your sons shall marry You; and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so Your God will rejoice over You." ~(Isaiah 62:5)

"He who has the bride is the Bridegroom; but the friend of the Bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the Bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine is now complete." ~(John 3:29)

...in other words Messiah was raised up according to regular days (3 days), and the rest of Him (the body) will be raised up within the time of 3 YHVH days, which are equal to 3 thousand years. Note: the last day does not have to fit within a full day ...Messiah rose early on the third day. Its not expressed in scripture what YHVH considers morning, noon, and evening within a thousand year period (or it is and I dont know)

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