What did God do before the creation of the earth?

Krystina661 said:

Someone who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, and has little religion.

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You realize that, to Hindus and Muslims, Christians are the pagans. Bushido is right: pagans have a lot of religion. You have to represent other opinions accurately, or you are committing false witness.

Ok but by pure literal definition she is right.

Warrior Poet

Warrior Poet said:

Ok but by pure literal definition she is right.

Warrior Poet

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By Merriam-Webster a pagan is either a follower of a polytheistic religion or someone with little religion. But not both.

Particulary to Muslims, Christians are viewed as polytheistic because they consider Trinity to be 3 gods, not one. So, to Muslims, Christians fit the literal definition of pagan.

tomuea said:

There was guy a few messages earlier in the thread who said that before creation God just chilled with the angles. I hate to be a spoilsport, but the angels came into existence during creation

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What's the scripture backup for that?

tomuea said:

There was guy a few messages earlier in the thread who said that before creation God just chilled with the angles. I hate to be a spoilsport, but the angels came into existence during creation

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Toumea, I was kidding. I was using it as an illustration that we don't know what God does when He is not interacting with humans. For all we know, He could still be chasing that cute angel on cloud 124.

However, like Cece, I really want to know the verses that say 1) that angels were created and 2) when. I can't find any verses referring to the creation of angels. Their origin is never discussed as far as I can see.

lucaspa said:

Toumea, I was kidding. I was using it as an illustration that we don't know what God does when He is not interacting with humans. For all we know, He could still be chasing that cute angel on cloud 124.

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You're telling me that after all this time he still hasn't been able to hook up with her? (I know, I know - God exists outside of time)

However, like Cece, I really want to know the verses that say 1) that angels were created and 2) when. I can't find any verses referring to the creation of angels. Their origin is never discussed as far as I can see.

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But is there really more than one being that simply is, without being created? Is it illogical to assume that the angels are created beings?

The following is a portion of "Concepts of Time" which originally was written in a letter I wrote to a Russian Neuropsychologist who was trying to understand the workings of conciousness, spirituality and God: It might help explain some of the things I've read on this forum.....

"November, 2002

Example: On January 17, 1995, Kobe, Japan was devastated by an earthquake. I was walking home from the store when two words invaded my thoughts: "Earthquake. Japan." So where did these thoughts come from? A few hours later on the news I watched the first report of the earthquake. There it was - a manifestation in the natural realm that coincided with the two words that came into my mind....So what really took place here? Psychic ability? Did a "ghost" or spirit put those words there? God? Or was there simply a fluctuation in the wheel of cyclic time that caused some form of thought transference of the knowledge of the natural event along the linear time line? We honestly don't know....or do we? I tend to believe "time" in multi-manifestations accounts for much of the strange phenomenon some people experience...........Enter, God: Since "god" is perceived as creator of all things, it is reasonable to conclude that God is responsible for such happenings. God, being creator of ALL dimensional realities; time, space, void, etc, and from God comes the energies present in the universe, therefore it can be reasoned that "God" as the master scientist and physicist is the one who "invented" all these powers of which we speak.... So, rather than try to "explain away" Gods existence by science (as some unfortunately do), I tend to explain Gods existence BY science - and while these theories come across as profound mystery to many, I see them in their simplicities...These are spiritual absolutes, boundless and timeless, because God and science become one, with the one explaining and complementing the other. We should not compartmentalize one aspect to the exclusion of the other. Like all the little pixels in a TV screen or in your computer monitor, each is a separate dot, but forms an entire picture - so what we see is not a series of dots but the entire portrayal of what flows harmoniously through each dot....When we tend to look at just one dot, one splash of color in the painting, we lose perspective of the whole. This happens when we look at just "God" in the religious dogmatic sense as an untouchable mysterious being, or when we examine just the photons in array of light, or just one sub-atomic particle of any one given energy...because all these things fit together. One note of music is meaningless, but placed together in harmonious rhythm become a masterpiece...This you can certainly relate to, as it is your natural state of being.



Great minds like Einstein and Hawkings have grasped some of these ideas, but I feel leave the picture incomplete. While they struggle to discover the mechanical methods to perhaps enter these dimensions, studying all the nuances of time, space, light, quarks, magnetic fields, gravity, anti-matter, etc...These are all just the mechanics. Step outside the limitations and consider that mind itself - human spirit in conjunction with God already has the ability to access the mechanics of all this and flow freely with it...."

NOTE: I was not advocating the power of "mind" but rather that our minds and spirits have to get in Gods Spirit for us to begin to understand these things. (The person I was writing this to was sceptical about Christianity.)

Also see "Creation Evidence" page of
http://arwensoracle.tripod.com/theprophetcrucible

Starcrystal said:

Example: On January 17, 1995, Kobe, Japan was devastated by an earthquake. I was walking home from the store when two words invaded my thoughts: "Earthquake. Japan." So where did these thoughts come from? A few hours later on the news I watched the first report of the earthquake. There it was - a manifestation in the natural realm that coincided with the two words that came into my mind....So what really took place here? Psychic ability? Did a "ghost" or spirit put those words there? God? Or was there simply a fluctuation in the wheel of cyclic time that caused some form of thought transference of the knowledge of the natural event along the linear time line?

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Maybe you thought the quake into existence. You didn't have knowledge of the event because the event didn't happen until you thought it. You must have great powers!

Only God has great powers. Actually its called "The Word of Knowledge", and is one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.
Wonder what you think of Moses then????

Starcrystal said:

Only God has great powers. Actually its called "The Word of Knowledge", and is one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.
Wonder what you think of Moses then????

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Umm...I wasn't being serious, just makin' a funny.

http://www.kisol.com/pages/encyclopaedia1.htm#creation

What can man of today picture with the word 'Creation'? He probably pictures myriads of planets and galaxies and solar systems. He only thinks in terms of what he can physically see. In most peoples' minds, Creation starts and ends with the physical world. For those who believe in an afterlife, this is not often pictured in any clear manner. At best, people think in terms of a heaven and a hell and these are not pictured as being part of Creation at all.
It is impossible to understand what Creation is without having an idea of what the word 'spirit' means. It is just this word that has become the nemesis of mankind. It is impossible to progress further in our enlightenment without coming to grips with it. Yet it is this very word that we resist with all our energies. It is however to no avail. Creation depends on it and we as human beings are of spiritual nature. Therefore the earlier we make efforts to understand what it means, the easier it would be for us to unravel the mysteries of Creation.


Yes, in the lowest rung of Creation, we have galaxies, solar systems and planets; but this is just the lowest rung. This is the layer that can be seen with our physical eyes and also observed with telescopes and so on. Immediately above this layer is another, which is of a different consistency. It is lighter, so it lies higher than this physical world. It is the World of Medium Gross Matter. All the galaxies, solar systems and planets that have already been observed in this physical world are also represented in the World of Medium Gross Matter. The latter is actually a prototype for the development of planetary bodies in this physical world. The planets here are formed based on a blue print or in other words they arise as a copy of all that can be found in the World of Medium Gross Matter. A step further upwards, we find the World of Fine Gross Matter which is also of a lighter nature and also serves as a prototype for the formation of the world below it (World of Medium Gross Matter), just like the latter is a prototype for the physically visible world.
Therefore, the lowest part of Creation is referred to as the World of Gross Matter, which has been subdivided into three: Fine Gross Matter, Medium Gross Matter and Heavy Gross Matter (physically visible world). Now above this world of Gross Matter is what has come to be known as the Ethereal World or the World of Ethereal Matter. This has nothing gross material about it and is of an entirely different consistency. It is lighter and as a result lies higher. This is also subdivided into Fine, Medium and Heavy. The latter lies immediately above the World of Fine Gross Matter and the Medium Ethereal lies above the Heavy Ethereal and the Fine lies above the Medium Ethereal.

We must realise that each individual layer represents worlds with their own natural environments. Above the Fine Ethereal lies the World of Animistic Substantiality. In the lower part of this layer is where animals have their origin. The higher part of this layer gives origin to the 'gods' of olden times. These are servants of the Creator whose ambit of activity lies in the formation of the natural world, the accretion of planets, and the various activities of the elemental and nature beings of which we have heard so much about.


Therefore, the Ethereal and the Gross Material Worlds together form the World of Matter. Now, lying above the Animistic realm is the Spiritual realm. It is already obvious from this description that worlds upon worlds must lie between this earth and this Spiritual realm. This is the realm of the human spirit. This is the Paradise where we originated from. Now this realm and the ones that lie below it together constitute Creation. There is another layer above the Spiritual realm of the human spirit called the Primordial Spiritual realm but this layer gives origin to beings who are entirely different in nature from human beings. They are perfect prototypes for humanity and they do not enter into our discussions as such today.


There we have the entire Creation! In our discussions it is better to stick to the realm of our origin though the realm of the Primordial Spiritual also belongs to Creation. The two realms of the Primordial Spiritual and the Spiritual are eternal since they are forever exposed to the quickening power from the Holy Spirit. The material worlds however are not. The celestial bodies comprising these worlds undergo a continuous cycle of formation and dissolution.
Material Creation came into being in order to among other things form a basis for the maturation of those creatures who could not come into immediate consciousness in their own realms. Human spirits, as mentioned above originated in the Spiritual realm but as unconscious spirit germs. Because of the pressure in the Spiritual realm due to the proximity of God, we could not unfold our abilities and we consequently remained unconscious. While within the same spiritual realm were other spirits who were stronger and could come into consciousness.


The human spirits retained within them the urge to strive towards self consciousness. It was this urge among other things that led to the formation of the material world. We could only come into consciousness gradually in a lower lying realm where the pressure was not so great because the distance from God allowed a slackening of this pressure. At a definite point for each spirit germ in the spiritual realm, it reached a stage in its urge that automatically led it to be expelled from the spiritual realm into the lower lying material realm launching it on a journey of discovery. A journey towards self consciousness and the development of those dormant abilities. Something that it could not do in the spiritual realm because it was not strong enough.

Material Creation itself was formed through the activity of the elemental beings, those beings who originated in the Animistic realm. These beings are the administrators of material Creation and we as human spirits are guests therein. Creation came into being through Laws which guided its formation. As guests we are meant to come to know these Laws and adhere to them. Adhering to them guarantees that we fulfil the purpose for which we are here, which is to go through the experiences which material Creation offers and as a result develop our abilities, become self conscious and return home, to Paradise.

Since material Creation is subject to the process of formation and dissolution, we must be wary of getting caught up in it. If we adhere to the Laws of Creation, then we will be able to free ourselves from it in time fully conscious and return home. On the other hand if we do not adhere to the Laws, we risk entangling ourselves and as a result become caught up, not being able to free ourselves in time and when material Creation has to undergo its natural process of dissolution we may also be destroyed with it.

God and the Divine (the immediate radiation of God beheld by John in the Revelation) have existed from all eternity (which cannot be grasped by the human spirit).

Before the birth of Creation ("Let there be Light"), when a small part of the Holy Spirit was sent out into the void, there was only God and the Divine.

The material universe came into being much, much later, being the densest and lowest part of our Creation.

I thought so. Some on other threads have said stuff not joking though.... Cool.

The answer is....

GOD existed

clinzey said:

You're telling me that after all this time he still hasn't been able to hook up with her? (I know, I know - God exists outside of time)

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She could be playing hard to get.

But is there really more than one being that simply is, without being created? Is it illogical to assume that the angels are created beings?

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The claim was not an assumption, but a statement of fact. Cece and I are just wondering what the basis of the statement is.

Angels, as far as I can see, present some real theological problems. If they are immortal and have always existed, how are they different from God? It would seem that monotheism has some real problems. How much power do they have? If any power at all, and free will, doesn't that diminish God's power?

JT said:

God and the Divine (the immediate radiation of God beheld by John in the Revelation) have existed from all eternity (which cannot be grasped by the human spirit).

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You need to qualify that with "I believe ..." You simply don't know if God has always existed. All we know from scripture is that God is far, far older than the Hebrews and claims to have existed before the earth. He never claims to have always existed. That's your extrapolation.

Before the birth of Creation ("Let there be Light"), when a small part of the Holy Spirit was sent out into the void, there was only God and the Divine.

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You're in trouble here, because you are making two gods -- Yahweh and the Divine. You can't separate them.

The material universe came into being much, much later, being the densest and lowest part of our Creation.

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Uh, just how did you get that "densest and lowest part of our Creation"?

not sure if anyone has said this yet but.... anything he wants. (besides the obvious stuff like sin, etc)

JT said:

Immediately above this layer is another, which is of a different consistency. It is lighter, so it lies higher than this physical world. It is the World of Medium Gross Matter. All the galaxies, solar systems and planets that have already been observed in this physical world are also represented in the World of Medium Gross Matter. The latter is actually a prototype for the development of planetary bodies in this physical world. The planets here are formed based on a blue print or in other words they arise as a copy of all that can be found in the World of Medium Gross Matter. A step further upwards, we find the World of Fine Gross Matter which is also of a lighter nature and also serves as a prototype for the formation of the world below it (World of Medium Gross Matter), just like the latter is a prototype for the physically visible world.

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Paganism creeps into Christianity -- again. This is the eternal forms of Aristotle and Plato. Congrats, you have introduced heresy here.

Therefore, the lowest part of Creation is referred to as the World of Gross Matter, which has been subdivided into three: Fine Gross Matter, Medium Gross Matter and Heavy Gross Matter (physically visible world). Now above this world of Gross Matter is what has come to be known as the Ethereal World or the World of Ethereal Matter. This has nothing gross material about it and is of an entirely different consistency. It is lighter and as a result lies higher. This is also subdivided into Fine, Medium and Heavy. The latter lies immediately above the World of Fine Gross Matter and the Medium Ethereal lies above the Heavy Ethereal and the Fine lies above the Medium Ethereal.

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Notice how all this is stated as fact but there is no data? Nothing either from the physical world and nothing from the Bible.

In the lower part of this layer is where animals have their origin. The higher part of this layer gives origin to the 'gods' of olden times.

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More paganism. Genesis 1 and much of the Bible explicitly denies that these beings exist at all. Yet here we have someone trying to reintroduce thse pagan gods back into reality!

Moderators, you may want to look at the post as violating the rule of advocating a religion other than Christianity.

There is another layer above the Spiritual realm of the human spirit called the Primordial Spiritual realm but this layer gives origin to beings who are entirely different in nature from human beings. They are perfect prototypes for humanity and they do not enter into our discussions as such today.

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Manichean heresy, too. Wow! We are hitting all the bases today!

I'm not going to comment on any more. This is so outside Christianity that there is no point wasting more time on it.

lucaspa said:

The claim was not an assumption, but a statement of fact. Cece and I are just wondering what the basis of the statement is.

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Check

Angels, as far as I can see, present some real theological problems. If they are immortal and have always existed, how are they different from God? It would seem that monotheism has some real problems. How much power do they have? If any power at all, and free will, doesn't that diminish God's power?

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Can angels really be a theological problem when there is no theological material about them in Scripture? Correct me if I'm wrong (which people here at CF are always ready, willing, and able to do ) but "angels" are simply messengers sent by God with some specific purpose or task. Man, I even hate the word "angel" because of the schemas attached to it. It's guys like Milton we have to watch out for!

lucaspa said:

Paganism creeps into Christianity -- again. This is the eternal forms of Aristotle and Plato. Congrats, you have introduced heresy here.

Notice how all this is stated as fact but there is no data? Nothing either from the physical world and nothing from the Bible.

More paganism. Genesis 1 and much of the Bible explicitly denies that these beings exist at all. Yet here we have someone trying to reintroduce thse pagan gods back into reality!

Moderators, you may want to look at the post as violating the rule of advocating a religion other than Christianity.

Manichean heresy, too. Wow! We are hitting all the bases today!

I'm not going to comment on any more. This is so outside Christianity that there is no point wasting more time on it.

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What is Manichean heresy? And how do you know what I am saying is not true? Because I assure you it is.

Btw - As for God being eternal

Revelation 10:6

There is another one as well somewhere