What defines suicide/murder?

[Ricky M]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

 

[Ken Rank]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

This is always the toughest thing to deal with. My view (and this is my view) is this... God is the giver and take of life, I believe that. And while I believe He expects us to do all we can and when we can't do anymore we stand in faith... I also believe that in relation to this situation, you have done all you can. No more meds, no more machines, nothing short of a God miracle will alter the course your mother in law is on. So, I would, at this point, leave it in God's hands. Meaning, since all you can do has been done... then I would cease all the man made interventions and hand it to God. Once off the meds, she either gets better because it is His will... or she passes because it is His will. In either case, His will would have been done!

 

[ChicanaRose]

C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

Wow...that's tough... I think the family should do all they can to keep her alive. However, some people opt for Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) option in case they stop breathing from heart attacks or for whatever reason. I am not suggesting one way or the other, as it is a personal matter between God and your family.

Do not resuscitate | Biblical vision

 

[Maria Billingsley]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

"C" is correct. If she intentionally stops providing care for her, even her medications, it would be considered elder abuse. So case closed. I am sorry she is suffering. The only way around this is to put her in hospice.
God bless you and your family during this difficult time.

 

[Ricky M]

"C" is correct. If she intentionally stops providing care for her, even her medications, it would be considered elder abuse. So case closed. I am sorry she is suffering. The only way around this is to put her in hospice.
God bless you and your family during this difficult time.

Interesting. I consider continuing them, and the situation, as elder abuse. Wonder what kind of legal precedents there are on this.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Interesting. I consider continuing them, and the situation, as elder abuse. Wonder what kind of legal precedents there are on this.

I have to say your OP heading is somewhat alarming. That being said, I hope I intervened enough that you would never take such an action. Here is a link to elder abuse signs. Towards the end, there is a section on denying medication.
Elder Abuse and Neglect - HelpGuide.org

 

[ChicanaRose]

I have to say your OP heading is somewhat alarming. That being said, I hope I intervened enough that you would never take such an action. Here is a link to Elder Abuse signs, towards the end, there is a section on denying medication.
Elder Abuse and Neglect - HelpGuide.org

This is helpful not just for the OP but for others who will read this, since we will eventually face this kind of situation as our parents age.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

This is really a very difficult situation to know what to say. I believe that we need to look at it from the position of your mother, what would she want. The bible tells us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us", if she is in a situation of daily distress, and is already on deaths door, it may be better to expedite the process. However to take he off the medication may cause more pain, the pain of a heart attack may be greater, than what she is currently suffering.

I would suggest you try praying for your mothers natural passing. I had a friend who was in a situation of great emotional stress after his mother died, he was slightly disabled, and was finding life to be a burden. He suddenly contracted an illness that killed him. I firmly believe that this was God's mercy to him. His natural life had come to the point that he could find no joy. So God took him to heaven. Prayer for your mother may do more than any action you can take.

 

[Ricky M]

I have to say your OP heading is somewhat alarming. That being said, I hope I intervened enough that you would never take such an action. Here is a link to elder abuse signs. Towards the end, there is a section on denying medication.
Elder Abuse and Neglect - HelpGuide.org

The little that the help guide says on medications is very broad and generic and doesn't really constitute legal opinion as it gives no definitions or guidelines. Again, my opinion is that keeping someone artificially alive thru unnecessary medication is very much abuse. My wife and I have modified our healthcare POAs to specifically state that if either of us is in such a state, our executor is to, with clear conscience, terminate all maintenance meds and only provide those needed for pain and comfort. And that is what I would do for my mother in law, but I'm not the one in place to make such a call. I don't believe in modern medicine's ability to make us suffer as long and hard as humanly possible. I can't imagine that is something God would wish upon any of us.

 

[Ricky M]

This is really a very difficult situation to know what to say. I believe that we need to look at it from the position of your mother, what would she want. The bible tells us to "do unto others as we would have them do unto us", if she is in a situation of daily distress, and is already on deaths door, it may be better to expedite the process. However to take he off the medication may cause more pain, the pain of a heart attack may be greater, than what she is currently suffering.

I would suggest you try praying for your mothers natural passing. I had a friend who was in a situation of great emotional stress after his mother died, he was slightly disabled, and was finding life to be a burden. He suddenly contracted an illness that killed him. I firmly believe that this was God's mercy to him. His natural life had come to the point that he could find no joy. So God took him to heaven. Prayer for your mother may do more than any action you can take.

I can't imagine anything more painful than lying in state unable to pass because someone is forcing pills down my throat. Give me pain meds, sure, but don't drag on the inevitable.

It's interesting to note that while C, S, and J are all designated as executors, only C has a copy of mom's HPOA, and she won't let anyone else see it. Makes me wonder what it says. And no they won't hire an attorney to force C to share it. C has the whole family bullied, except for my wife and I.

Also of note, the family (ok 2 well off sisters) has spent well over $1 million on care for her. How many families have that kind of resources?

We have been praying. Thank you for praying too.

 

[Soul-searching]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

This is very difficult, people are so different, and have a lot of different views. That is why it´s so important, to talk about what people wants to do, if things happens, to prevent situations like this. I understand that C thinks the way she does, but i do not agree either, i would also classify the way she acts as abuse. C only keeps her mom alive for her own selfish needs. The point is to be able to put your own feelings, needs and wants aside, and look at things from a higher perspective. Sure, you could argue that it says in the bible a million things, but are we not supposed to do, what is best for the ones we love? Is that not the whole concept of Christianity, love? is it the best to keep a person alive, who is already dead? just because of our selfish needs? or because we are afraid that God will punish us? C is afraid that she will kill her mom, if you put her off her meds, but she is killing her mom right now, keeping her alive at all costs, so what is the difference?? If C was in her moms situation, would she prefer to suffer like that? I dont think you will ever be able to get C to understand this. I´m sorry, what a terrible situation to be in. I don´t think there is much you can do, either accept it, try to convince C, which i think is not going to happen, or get a hold of that document somehow.

 

[TraceMalin]

I don't think the Bible is silent on mercy killings. 12In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.…

 

[Ricky M]

I don't think the Bible is silent on mercy killings. 12In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.…

If it were me I'd say put the pillow over my face and call it a life.

 

[ajcarey]

I don't believe it would be murder to let her go off the medications and pass away naturally. I see nothing in the Bible to indicate that would be murder, though if I were the decision maker I would sure double check in fear and trembling. The poor woman though really has nothing to live for in terms of usefulness to God or other people or even her own self. But you're not the one in charge of this and if you were you'd also have to really diligently consult lawyers to make sure you weren't legally liable if you took her off the meds. I would be praying fervently like a previous poster suggested that God would take her life away despite C's intervention.

And I do see an obvious difference between this situation versus if you were to take yourself off your heart medication. You yet have a chance to serve God and bless others by your life. You still have responsibilities which you are capable of fulfilling. We're told in the Bible to render unto God the things which be God's; and to glorify God in our body and our spirit which are God's; and many other like things. For someone to go off medication who is in a position to do these things by virtue of staying on the medication would indeed be suicide or at least some great offense about equal to suicide. In most cases I believe it is common sense to distinguish when intervention to save life is proper and when it's proper to let nature take its course.

 

[Ricky M]

I don't believe it would be murder to let her go off the medications and pass away naturally. I see nothing in the Bible to indicate that would be murder, though if I were the decision maker I would sure double check in fear and trembling. The poor woman though really has nothing to live for in terms of usefulness to God or other people or even her own self. But you're not the one in charge of this and if you were you'd also have to really diligently consult lawyers to make sure you weren't legally liable if you took her off the meds. I would be praying fervently like a previous poster suggested that God would take her life away despite C's intervention.

And I do see an obvious difference between this situation versus if you were to take yourself off your heart medication. You yet have a chance to serve God and bless others by your life. You still have responsibilities which you are capable of fulfilling. We're told in the Bible to render unto God the things which be God's; and to glorify God in our body and our spirit which are God's; and many other like things. For someone to go off medication who is in a position to do these things by virtue of staying on the medication would indeed be suicide or at least some great offense about equal to suicide. In most cases I believe it is common sense to distinguish when intervention to save life is proper and when it's proper to let nature take its course.

It would also depend upon what is in mom's healthcare POA, which C won't show to anyone, even the other two who are listed as executors. But no one is willing to sue her to force her to release it.

 

[eleos1954]

My mother in law, God bless her soul, had a major stroke 10 years ago. The doctors said she wouldn't live thru the night, and would for sure be gone by week's end. But here we are, ten years later and she is still with us. Even tho she couldn't talk, she was still well enough to travel and so for several years we took her back to her hometown from time to time to be with her family there. Which is really where she wanted to be after her husband died, except the majority of her kids wouldn't let her move.

4 years ago she took ill, and has since been confined to bed and 95% comatose. About once a week she'll open her eyes and try to grunt something and cry, but otherwise she's just out. It's a miserable, painful existence.

My wife's older sister (we'll call her "C") is in charge of mom's medical care. "C" still has her on all her maintenance medications - anti arrhythmics, blood thinners, blood pressure pills, etc. We have made the case that mom is being kept artificially alive by this, and these meds should be stopped so she can go on home to be with God. C takes the position that if she takes mom off her heart meds and she passes from a heart attack, she has in effect killed her mom. So C keeps mom on them and mom continues to waste away and suffer.

I can't find an answer to this in the Bible. Is it ok to take mom off her meds so she can move on to the next world? Or would that be, as C believes, a form of murder?

And to extrapolate, what if I got tired of it all and decided to stop taking my heart meds in hopes nature would then take it's course? Would that really be suicide? (And no I'm not actually considering it, just posing the question).

As Christians, where do we draw these lines?

Difficult situation for sure, praying for you and your family.

My take on this, not totally biblical is this.

Life is given and sustain by the breath of God.

Given much time has passed (4 years) if your mom is on life support (a machine breathing for her) Although difficult, I would take her off of it and continue with the rest.

Sounds like, she's just on medication? If she is in pain ... then the doctor(s) should be giving her "comfort" medicine.

Because your sister feels the way she does, if she makes the decision to take her off her meds and she does in fact pass as a result of this ... then ... your sister would carry around great guilt, likely for the rest of her life ... and that certainly would not be a good thing.

We don't know what is going on in the brain, when a person is no longer able to communicate in some manner.

I don't believe if a person refuses medical help and passes because of this is suicide ... it's total reliance on God ... same with the decision to take someone off artificial (machinery) sustaining their life is not murder.

Murder is done out of hate ... and certainly hate is not involved here.

To me ... it is the breath of life.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the LORD--He who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it and life to those who walk in it--

EVERYBODY, no matter your age one should have a living will on file that expresses how they want this type of situation handled ... should it arise.

May the Lord bring peace to your mother and the family. Amen