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Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,
It was events like these which are recorded which started the tradition, not vice versa! The facts are BIBLICALLY CLEAR, breaking of bread was done "DAILY", and was NEVER exclusively referenced communion or a specific day.
Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,
like I said there is NO historical evidence that any Christians observed Sunday in the first century.
Before you go quoting from some source you think historically proves your point, you might want to know a little about it....try this....
Undoubtedly if you have done your research you will have realized that the first part of the Didache was probably written and referenced to in the scriptures. It was basically a Jewish handbook emphasizing the right and wrongs of behavior, to which many Catholic and Jewish sources agree. The latter part was added as late as the 4th century all the while being modified further from true apostolic teaching and more and more reflecting the man-made and pagan traditions that had been influencing the church. Other influences would include racism, greed, and politics.
Originally posted by adam332
Do you want the 5th, 6th, 7th, etc... centuries as well?????
Or how about the Bible to show you that statement is false?
Originally posted by Wonder
I pray He shields both of my sides as I try to call a peace here....What if I were to try to explain why I see both sides as correct yet wrong...I will not point out the wrong but will tell why I see both sides right.
I can see Sunday...or the eighth day, Some call it the Lords day.
In Gen...God created man in 6th day....rested on the 7th....says no more. We then pick on the 8th day as the Lord God creates Adam. Adam was not given the instructions to take dominion, nor to multiply, until after the fall,. He was formed to till the ground. To keep the garden....Looks kinda like he was put here to tear up whatever man couldn't.
I see the Lords day as the millennial reign ..... Adam was to die the day he ate the fruit....he died within that 1000 yrs. I see the day of the Lord as 1000 yrs .... where Gods said His day was evening and morning. Sounds like 24 hours to me....but not so with the Lord.
A piece of my heart: I wish people would just ask people why they do what they do instead of condemming one another....If one believes that the Lord knows what He is doing then we need to see why one does what he does.
The Sabbath is the day God set aside for rest...we need that. And believe it should be kept...
Sunday is not a Sabbath as in resting but it should be a day of acknowledgement of the Lords works.
I think that most of the OT is the work of the Lord....that is why He could say that He came to His and they didn't know Him. The Most High spoke the Ten commandments and from there the laws of moses is the laws of the Lord. He goes forward to explain what God meant by the 10 commandments.
As if I told a child to clean his room.....stashing clothes under the bed etc. isn't cleaning it, so I have to follow through with what clean means.... After watching the child struggle with trying to do as instructed but is unable, I then go and show the child ... work with the child until he understands...really there was only one "law", clean your room, but because lack of understanding I then add....hang your clothes...dust tables etc.
Many people see that it was Jesus dealing with people in the OT...and in the NT...that is because it is His work.
When He said if you love me keep my commandments.....they would be the so called laws of moses. By keeping them we get to know Him...and best of all we learn what out Father means by His 10 commandments.
Lets open our minds and trust in our Lord....in His love
Originally posted by adam332
geocajun,
you said;
"it is required of all Christians that they at least attend it on Sunday for the "Lords Day""
There is NOWHERE in the scripture nor in any first century Christian writing the validate such a claim.
I did not assume a thing, I simply put them out there to prove my point which they do.Your first mistake is assuming I didn't already know those quotes, which I did.
there still is not a RCC... its The Catholic Church and your referring to the Latin rite of it.The was no such institution as the RCC in the first century so your claim opposes itself.
show me some references to back your claim please.Those links express the views of the scholars which tell us over and over that the Didache was modified and added to after the first century. You obviously know very little on the subject of the Didache,
the bible is a result of Catholic tradition - I suggest YOU learn some history...We are not here to prove Catholic tradition, we are here to address Biblical law.
uhh, any christian who keeps the sabbath is doing so because they do not understand christianity, they are an ex-jew keeping some tradition, or a judahizer heretic.You made a claim that NO Christian ever kept the Sabbath and that is false, I proved it with historical writings and scripture. Please do not go off on some other tangent, it is a simple matter of whether you whether your right or wrong with that statement, which I have clearly shown you to be wrong.
both.There are other opposing ideas with your doctrine, you infer that Sabbath keeping is Judaizing, then you show scripture that tells us the Sabbath was made for man. Well, was it made for man or was it made for Jews?
this is why you need an objective authority... (the Church Christ founded) you have no idea what your talking about, but you are at least consistant in your conjecture.Christ's statement says volumes if you let it. When was the sabbath made? On the seventh day of creation. Who was it made for? Man. Were there any Jews for it to be given to at that time? No, Israelites did not exist for another 2300 yrs. Woman was made for man as well, are you going to try and tell us that this means we are no longer bound by marriage? By your way of interpretation, since we can break the Sabbath because it was made for us, then we must also be allowed to commit adultery, because woman was made for man. You see your interpretation is very inconsistent.
that verse in context does not say keep the levitical sabbath, it mearly says keep a day of rest. which of course, since the bible is Catholic, the Catholic church teaches...Christ's comments show that whatever relationship that man had with the Sabbath at the time it was made , was still the same. IOW, nothing had changed. "Therefore a keeping of the Sabbath remains for the people of God"(Heb. 4:9).
somehow this person is an authority on Catholic doctrine?"We say this church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide through life, has the right to change the Ceremonial Laws of the Old Testament; and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say "Yes, the church made the change, made this law, as she made many other laws,.....It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in pulpit legislature, demand the observance of Sunday, of
which there is nothing in the Bible."
sounds reasonable - not technical enough for this conversation, but good enough for pastoral teaching..Page 50
"A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plentitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her."
nor do we find that everything must be kept in the bible, or that all the apostles wrote even what they did or changed.."Nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday.
Originally posted by geocajun
All, It has been said in this thread that there is no historical proof that Christians do not celebrate the sabbath day, but rather the Lords Day on Sunday instead.
Originally posted by seangoh
Brother geocajun, next time be more careful with what u say. In fact there's much more history about sabbath keepers than sunday keepers
Originally posted by seangoh
http://www.tagnet.org/llt/sabcen.htm
Sorry this link was supposed to be visited. Have a look at it.
Originally posted by geocajun
I did, for a second, seems like a lot of useless information to be honest. God has spoken to us through his Church and thats good enough for me. I only come to here to make sure you guys are aware of the truth. if you choose to taken only a part of Catholic teaching (the bible) [and take it out of context] and not others, thats your perogative.
Originally posted by geocajun
I did, for a second, seems like a lot of useless information to be honest.
Originally posted by thetruthseeker
Hi Geocajun,
I want to state again that you are my brother in Christ. Everything that I have said and that I am saying is out of love.
It sounds and looks like you are very confused about your own thoughts. You vasilate continually. There does not seem to be any order or ryhme or reason to your thinking.
This would change if you would take Jesus, not the Pope, Mary, priest, seriously. Learn about your church history and what you believe in. Learn about the truth and not the culture of religion.
Settle on what you believe, then you can have a serious conversation with someone about religion.
Evidently, you have strong convictions. That is not enough, neither is philosophysing. Words are just words. Anyone can type in words--lots of words. However, there has to be an orderly, consistant truth, there must be sound reasoning and common-sense. Try reading the Bible, at least the Douay-Rheims (a Catholic Bible) but read. Pray before you read. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you to truth.
Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
Originally posted by adam332
Truthseeker,
Geocajun,
you said;
"show me where scripture says everything must come from scripture!"
now thats just silly... scripture is a book, God is truth. Dont go making an idol out of scripture and thinking it IS God.You said;
"Scripture is a Tradition, much like what I am pointing out"
Wrong, scripture is truth.
yesDo you not agree that the Lord has used a donkey, to get His point across, (Num. 22:28)?
Do you not agree that the Lord used the devil to test Job, to get His point across, (Job 1-2)?
Do you not agree that even after Moses disobediently smote the rock twice, the Lord continued to use him?
Do you not agree that the Israelite's have a long history of disobeying and angering God?
Do you not agree that Christ continually rebuked the religious leaders on their additions to religious matters?
Do you not agree that even though, Christ showed the religious leaders to be full of error, and wrongfully adding to spiritual matters He was still able to use these people throughout their existence to preserve His word?
well so do you really, as the list of books in your bible is a Catholic doctrine.If God has proven time and time again that He can use the devil, a donkey, disobedient men, and men full of error filled doctrine to do His will, then why do you think that the doctrines and traditions of those who aided in the preservation of the canon have to be right?
You are basically asserting that since the early church helped preserve inspired writing, then they also must be treated as inspired.
That is a completely un-Biblical, and inconsistent reasoning! The Bible shows countless times that God can and will use who ever He see's fit, regardless of how righteous or evil they are, and regardless of how full of error their own doctrine is.
your list of books that complete the bible is extra-biblical. your contradicting yourself.Using non-Biblical sources as a guage for truth on religious matters, is completely against what the Bible teaches. Any group that teaches their own traditions as truth is in strict violation of the Bible.
Originally posted by coastie
As for the topic, can someone explain to me why it matters what day the Sabbath is?
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