What constitutes worship?

[edie19]

I have a question - and I'm thinking I'll get some good answers here.

I had coffee with a friend yesterday, she's recently started attending a seeker sensitive church. One of the reasons she quit attending her previous (and my current) church and started at this new one is the worship (her words not mine). She loved the teaching at PRBC (my church) but found the worship to limited.

Now to the question part - when she says worship - she means music. I hear this all the time, people refer to the music portion of a service as worship. I've even heard folks say their church had a special worship service - when I ask details the entire service was music. I believe that the entire Lord's Day service is worship and refer to a Sunday service as a worship service - the prayer, the Scripture, certainly any creeds and/or confessions, the teaching and yes, the music. All should be God centered and God focused. But I'm finding more and more that my opinion is the minority opinion. Mind you - I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the music portion of a service - I love to sing to the Lord, sing songs that help define who He is, define how Holy He is. I'm just very tired of the attitude that that's all there is to worship (especially when so many of the current crop of "praise and worship" songs are so deficient theologically).

So first of all - am I wrong in my thinking? I don't believe so, but some confirmation of that would be nice. Second - where (or when) exactly did our perception of worship become so narrowed and distorted? Is it solely a product of the whole "seeker sensitive" movement? Is it the continuing effect of Finney's "excitements"? Is there something I'm not seeing in the greater scheme of things?

Boost my ego a little here and tell me I'm not alone in my thinking.

 

[A New Dawn]

No, you are not wrong. At least not in my opinion.

I think worship entails praise, learning the word, commitment/dedication, service, anything we do in His name, for Him. Our whole lives can be seen as a worship opportunity, if we have the right attitude.

However, as far as going to church, I agree with you, it should be a mixture of all the aspects. I don't disagree that there can be special services that dwell on one of the aspects, but it just can't be worship if we leave the learning aspect out, or the dedication aspect.

IMO.

 

[ClementofRome]

The droaning mantras of the contemporary Christian seeker friendly service I believe is what many consider "worship." The constant singing of the same line over and over that achieves the same effect as the pantheistic mantra is completely and wholely experiential in nature and not biblical in any way. I am not big into prescription in worship as many in reformed circles are, however, I dispise the 20-30 minute mantra session that many/most churches have turned too today.

I used to be into it at one point when the PCA church we were attending got heavily into the mantra thing...however, it got old fast. I too believe that worship includes the entire service.

Now, here is another beef now that you mention it... Why in the world do we have to follow the EXACT same order of service week after week after week? It seems to me that the Lord would enjoy a nice suprise or two (not that anything surprises Him, but you know what I mean).

 

[A New Dawn]

It seems to me that the Lord would enjoy a nice suprise or two (not that anything surprises Him, but you know what I mean).

 

[Jon_]

It seems to me that the Lord would enjoy a nice suprise or two (not that anything surprises Him, but you know what I mean).

What!? Have you not read Pinnock in The Openness of God? Of course God is surprised! He's not omniscient after all, he's just got amazing reflexes!

(Such is the heresy of Open Theism.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Last year, I participated in a Bible study with a group from the campus Inter Varsity chapter. A girl brought in a radio and some CCM CDs, and said that she'd like to just pick a song and worship. I asked her to explain what she meant by "worship". To which she replied, "You know... worship." I guess I didn't know, because I had to have it explained to me that what she really meant was sing along to someone repeating "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus," over and over again, interrupted by some fluffy lines that sounded like they came from a self-help book (or the Purpose-Driven™ scriptures). We ended up arguing over what it means to worship, and while she admitted that worship means more than just music, she maintained that music is an essential part of worship (which I did not deny). Well, she didn't change, but since then, I started seeing a lot of the same coming from my own church. Last week, for instance, I walked in (slightly late), only to find that I hadn't walked into a worship service, but a rock concert... lights, fog machine, and all. I felt rather silly all dressed up, with Bible in hand. Perhaps I should have messed up my hair, ripped my pants, and thrown the horns. I don't know. It's somewhat depressing.

 

[edie19]

what she really meant was sing along to someone repeating "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus," over and over again, interrupted by some fluffy lines that sounded like they came from a self-help book (or the Purpose-Driven™ scriptures).

our music leader calls them 7-11 songs, 7 words that you repeat 11 times.

Last week, for instance, I walked in (slightly late), only to find that I hadn't walked into a worship service, but a rock concert... lights, fog machine, and all.

My daughter's church has the same thing - makes me sad, I feel like I didn't do something right since she's given up really good meat for milk (and skim milk at that).

BTW - did you check out the church my pastor recommended?

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

BTW - did you check out the church my pastor recommended?

Not yet... Olmstead Falls is a little out of the way. I am considering Begg's church, though, and I'm hoping it hasn't fallen prey to the same big-church problems that my current one has.

 

[Glenda]

Now, here is another beef now that you mention it... Why in the world do we have to follow the EXACT same order of service week after week after week?

The Service at the church I attend is never the same two weeks in a row..

Pastor plans the order of service.. but lets the Holy Spirit run the service.. Sometimes he works all week on his sermon, only to throw his notes over his shoulder as the Spirit leads elsewhere..

After all It is God's way and timing.. not ours..

It is God's Church.. and God's Service..

 

[JJB]

Worship is exalting the Lord (in song, creeds, confessions), praying, hearing the word and giving of our gifts. At least that's what I think of as worship.

 

[edie19]

Now, here is another beef now that you mention it... Why in the world do we have to follow the EXACT same order of service week after week after week? It seems to me that the Lord would enjoy a nice suprise or two (not that anything surprises Him, but you know what I mean).

My church isn't liturgical - but we do follow the regulative principle of worship so the order is pretty much the same each week. But that's ok - sometimes my pastor says goofy things* by accident - so we have that to look forward to. Also, one of his favorite sayings is "but I digress" - his tangents are always really interesting.

*once he was talking about Moses and Pharoah and referred to the evil Moses when he meant Pharoah

*my personal favorite - he wanted us to read a Bible passage when we got home - but only finished half the sentence, so in the middle of his sermon he told everyone to go home.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Also, one of his favorite sayings is "but I digress" - his tangents are always really interesting.

Sounds like the professor I had for intro to chem for engineers. He was a short, zany Puerto Rican (sounds like my dad's side of the family, actually, except they're pretty tall). He'd always go off on a 5-minute tangent, and end with a quick, "but I digress."

 

[ClementofRome]

The Service at the church I attend is never the same two weeks in a row..

Pastor plans the order of service.. but lets the Holy Spirit run the service.. Sometimes he works all week on his sermon, only to throw his notes over his shoulder as the Spirit leads elsewhere..

After all It is God's way and timing.. not ours..

It is God's Church.. and God's Service..

I think that it is good to toss the notes from time to time. It is also good to change the order of worship as well.

I was once told that we could not possibly change the timing of the offering because it fell between the congregational prayer and the sermon....if the sermon was not GREAT the offering might not meet budget. GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN!

 

[ClementofRome]

but we do follow the regulative principle of worship so the order is pretty much the same each week

but this is part of my problem....the order of worship is not regulated in any way. Do you think that the early church followed the following:

Welcome
Announcements
Meet and greet
Hymn
prayer
Hymn
Scripture reading
collection
doxology
prayer
sermon
prayer
hymn
benediction

This is no where regulated as I understand regulation. Help me out here.

 

[ClementofRome]

What!? Have you not read Pinnock in The Openness of God? Of course God is surprised! He's not omniscient after all, he's just got amazing reflexes!

(Such is the heresy of Open Theism.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

In fact I took a seminary class with Royce Gruenler (former Process Theologian, turned Evangelical) and it was amazing! The John Cobb "process" folks are not far removed from the Pinnock "openness" gang. PILE ON!

 

[JJB]

And no one's mentioned coffee hour in the fellowship hall!?!

 

[Jon_]

And no one's mentioned coffee hour in the fellowship hall!?!

Sacrilege! (Spoken through a mouthful of fresh-brewed Peet's Columbian.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[edie19]

but this is part of my problem....the order of worship is not regulated in any way. Do you think that the early church followed the following:

Welcome
Announcements
Meet and greet
Hymn
prayer
Hymn
Scripture reading
collection
doxology
prayer
sermon
prayer
hymn
benediction

This is no where regulated as I understand regulation. Help me out here.

I believe both the LBC and Westminster address the regulative principle - but it's simply that worship is commanded by God as clearly stated in Scripture. So we have prayer, teaching, reading of the word and singing of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. We also celebrate the Lord's Table on a weekly basis.

We have an order - but some of the things you list we don't do (no announcements, no offering collection). We go back and forth on the greeting part - we've put it in, taken it out, and put it back in. I have mixed feelings about greeting each other because there are some who believe it is their duty to greet everyone. Sometimes it gets a little out of hand. But that's part of what makes us who we are.

Like GlendaJoanne - my pastor has studied all week with a certain sermon in mind - only to change at the last minute. One time it was my fault, I sent him the results of a Barna survey late on a Saturday - based on the survey he came up with a new sermon in less than 12 hours. While generally he does expository preaching (currently going through Galatians - started in January or February and just finished the 3rd chapter today), he will occasionally do a topical sermon based on what's going on. A couple of weeks ago he changed his sermon after we had a race riot here in Toledo.

I recently attended church with my daughter (as I've said before, she attends a seeker sensitive mega church 6000-7000 attendees weekly). They have a order to their worship too - its just a different order.

 

[edie19]

And no one's mentioned coffee hour in the fellowship hall!?!

Our coffee isn't really very good - I stopped at Starbucks on the way to church this morning for a vanilla latte`. Not very good of me to take the detour I know, but at least I sort of felt guilty.

 

[lmnop9876]

Worship is exalting the Lord (in song, creeds, confessions), praying, hearing the word and giving of our gifts. At least that's what I think of as worship.

i take it you don't think the Lord's Supper is worship???

We also celebrate the Lord's Table on a weekly basis.

finally, someone who does!

from what i've read in Justin Martyr, the early church service went something like, pray, read the Gospels and Epistles, prayer before Communion, the Eucharist, then pray again. the prayers probably included psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs as well.