What causes rabid fundamentalism?

[StormyOne]

We see examples in almost all religions, and in adventism as well.... What causes this rabid I am right, you are wrong and you are going to hell if you don't believe as I do mentality?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I went to an AAF forum on this subject this last Sabbath. It was by the Dean of WWU (WWC) school of theology David Thomas. Entitled Fundamentalism and Adventists. I hope to put a blog article on it soon. I recorded it but it is difficult to hear still, and who knows when the forum will have the tapes for sell. Why they don't just put the lectures up as mp3's I don't know I guess making money is more important. Anyway he had a very interesting definition

It was basically fundamentalism is based upon the fear of change. It is why fundamentalism has been growing so much in our generation as there has been more changes in the world from the 1960's to today then in the previous 2000 years. (I would say at least 4000). So when you look at it as their reaction based upon fear it makes so much sense. In our SDA forum you see the fear of allowing certain subjects to be discussed. In Islam there are people who say that the goal is to have no changes from this generation to the next generation and so on.

The way they fight change is to develop an orthodoxy which they declare as sacred and beyond change. And this gives them comfort and a security in the midst of change even though man and the world are constantly changing.

When I see them making the tapes available I will let people know as it is one of the most important topics for today and something that unfortunately few fundamentalists would even consider listening too.

He did note how funny it is to hear Adventists talk about orthodoxy.

 

[StormyOne]

so basically it boils down to a fear of change... interesting indeed...

 

[JonMiller]

I have always considered myself a fundamentalist.

JM

 

[StormyOne]

I have always considered myself a fundamentalist.

JM

the qualifier.... "rabid"

 

[Sophia7]

Historically, I think Adventism gravitated toward the fundamentalist movement of the early part of the 20th century because fundamentalist principles fit with the Adventist desire to preserve its identity and defend against any loss of confidence in Adventist doctrine, especially after the death of EGW and in the wake of the 1919 Bible Conference. Adventism just seems to lend itself to fundamentalism since it teaches that we are the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that we have more truth than any other Christian churches.

 

[StormyOne]

Historically, I think Adventism gravitated toward the fundamentalist movement of the early part of the 20th century because fundamentalist principles fit with the Adventist desire to preserve its identity and defend against any loss of confidence in Adventist doctrine, especially after the death of EGW and in the wake of the 1919 Bible Conference. Adventism just seems to lend itself to fundamentalism since it teaches that we are the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that we have more truth than any other Christian churches.

however as pointed out, a rigid fundamentalist attitude is resistant to change... so how can people claim to be a part of the "advent movement" when they are resistant to change?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Here is what I put up on the blog, it covers the first part of lecture.

Adventism and Fundamentalism



This last Saturday I attended Pacific Northwest Adventist Forum presented by Dave Thomas, D. Min. Professor of Theology Dean, School of Theology Walla Walla College. This was a very good presentation on a sensitive subject that no doubt would cause Adventist fundamentalist to bristle. Hopefully at some point the forum will have their website up and running and a tape or mp3 of the presentation available. I did offer previously to interview a speaker prior to his presentation but they may do that on their website and so turned down my offer. That was many months ago but as a friend told me maybe I am not safe. Here is some of the information from the Forum presentation.

Fundamentalism definition by Dave Thomas:

Fundamentalism is a reaction against rapid change. It is driven more by fear than it is by faith.

Religious faith provides context for peoples lives. Once you establish a reality of ultimate faith you can’t change it or you rob people of their sense of place and purpose and they won’t abide such changes. Every generation looks at their children and sees them as rapidly declining; it has been the view of the older generation of the younger for thousands of years. Fundamentalism is attempting to prevent change.

Fundamentalists like to carefully define a body of truth. Second they ascribe that body of truth as directly from God. Which is why verbal inspiration is so popular among many fundamentalists. Like the Koran which is only correct when read in Arabic any other language is a lesser word of God. Once they have the body of truth attributed to God they can declare it as orthodoxy. Our understanding came down from heaven it is the way things are, they can’t be changed. Then those not accepting the orthodoxy are shunned or discredited or in extremist cases worse.

As Reinhold Niebuhr wrote: ”Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith but in doubt. It is when we are not sure that we are doubly sure. Fundamentalism is, therefore, inevitable in an age which has destroyed so many certainties by which faith once expressed itself and upon which it relied.”

The hope then is by fixing beliefs the fundamentalist can prevent change. It is a poor strategy because all human knowledge is partial at best. Even revelation from God is partial as Paul said “we know in part and we see in part” but he looks to the day when we know and be known completely. Human knowledge is always affected by time and place.

Fundamentalism has three basic flaws

• Limited knowledge. (we are guaranteed that there are errors in every religious system of belief)
• Change is ever present and perhaps necessary part of life. (how does one fight a given in life)
• Truth is often based upon an experience test. (The ultimate truth is revealed by a person’s experience of the transforming power of God. Thus they look inward to judge the viability of their religion. But what happens when the person falls into sin or their conversion experience appears to fail? If they look inward their proof is gone. What happens in many fundamentalists is that they lose their faith in fall into agnosticism or secularism.)

One of the wonders of early Adventism was the idea of Present Truth, knowledge that is current and as time moves on knowledge increases and present truth expands.

Dr. Thomas did remind us of the two major contributions of Fundamentalism which are a high degree of respect for the Bible and a continuing the sense of the supernatural against the modernism of the last centuries.

 

[StormyOne]

cool RC, do I have your permission to post this on another forum? Good thoughts that may add to the discussion....

 

[Sophia7]

however as pointed out, a rigid fundamentalist attitude is resistant to change... so how can people claim to be a part of the "advent movement" when they are resistant to change?

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense, does it? The Adventist pioneers changed quite a bit in their thinking over time. The regression into fundamentalism halted forward movement for a long time. I wonder if the church as a whole can ever recover from it completely.

 

[Sophia7]

One of the wonders of early Adventism was the idea of Present Truth, knowledge that is current and as time moves on knowledge increases and present truth expands.

Dr. Thomas did remind us of the two major contributions of Fundamentalism which are a high degree of respect for the Bible and a continuing the sense of the supernatural against the modernism of the last centuries.

So fundamentalism isn't all bad.

I've never considered myself a fundamentalist, just a conservative (not in an Adventist sense but in a general Christian sense).

 

[Bourbaki]

We see examples in almost all religions, and in adventism as well.... What causes this rabid I am right, you are wrong and you are going to hell if you don't believe as I do mentality?

Fundamentalism is based being ignorant of the Spirit of God. Liberalism is based on unbelief, which leads its hapless victims to think they are wiser than God.

I conclude that there is greater hope for the ignorant than the arrogant. The New Testament reveals that many Pharisees came to believe in Jesus. There isn't even one example of a Sadducee in the Bible coming to believe in Jesus.

I call the Sadducees of the Seventh-day Adventist church Aggressives. I call the Fundamentalists Legalists. I used to call the Legalists the Cultics, which is a more accurate term for this faction, but it sounds too harsh. I rather be too polite than being too accurate like a perfectionist if my general meaning is understood well enough.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

cool RC, do I have your permission to post this on another forum? Good thoughts that may add to the discussion....

Sure you can post it just give the link to the blog also.

Sophia wrote:

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense, does it? The Adventist pioneers changed quite a bit in their thinking over time. The regression into fundamentalism halted forward movement for a long time. I wonder if the church as a whole can ever recover from it completely.

As he pointed out in the lecture though I did not cover it. As the volumes of the book the Fundamentals were produced in 1909, which is where Fundamentalism gets it name they can be listed a short form as Dictonary.com says:

1.(sometimes initial capital letter

) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.

When you list those out you see how well they fit into the Adventist beliefs. About the only exception is the infallibility of the Bible since thanks to Ellen White a lot of people had gone away from verbal inspiration. But our history shows that even with Ellen White after fundamentalism took hold until the 1960's a lot of Adventists were involved in the verbal inspiration idea and not only of the Bible but also EGW. (see Craig Newborn's presention the path to disengagement) The 1919 Bible conference dealt with some of those issues but then the transcripts were lost until the 1970's. They may have wrestled with it but the leadership seemed to have determined that fundamentalism was the way to go.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The Pacific Northwest Adventist Forum has announced they have the tape of Dave Thomas' presentation for more info see
Adventism and Fundamentalism Tape Available

 

[Mankin]

The human being longing to have everything right and thnk that everyone else is wrong. Plus indoctrination adds to this.

 

[sentipente]

So fundamentalism isn't all bad.

I can't think of anything that is "all bad." Maybe that is the problem, our desire to identify somethings as being all bad.

 

[Sophia7]

I can't think of anything that is "all bad." Maybe that is the problem, our desire to identify somethings as being all bad.

Maybe so.

 

[Mankin]

It is good to have some fundamentals for your life, so I would not call fundamentalism entirely bad. DOGMATIC fundamentalism on the other hand, is just plain WRONG!