What are your thoughts about Bonhoeffer?

joyfulthanks · Oct 12, 2008

What are your thoughts about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? In your opinion, does he accurately express Lutheran beliefs?

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 13, 2008

contriteheart said:
What are your thoughts about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? In your opinion, does he accurately express Lutheran beliefs?

Somewhat, but I just can not get my head around his involvement with the plot to kill Hitler.

Till · Oct 13, 2008

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Somewhat, but I just can not get my head around his involvement with the plot to kill Hitler.

Why is that?

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 13, 2008

Till said:
Why is that?

Such involvement is akin to shooting an abortionist, or blowing up his clinic. The intent may be noble, but the action is anti-christian and pure sin. Actions such as DB's set a poor example for Christians. Without his actions he would have been just another Evangelical Pastor, no hanging, no Letters from Prison, and no edification and commemoration by various Churches and Synods. If Christians would follow the example that his actions set, just how "Christ like" would we be?

Some would argue, "look at Luther" and all the hatred that some of his writings (eg. The Jews and their Lies) and some of our confessional writings (Treatise) contain and say "what's the difference?". The difference is Bonhoeffer's actions, imprisonment, and execution are his "Magnum opus" whereas Luther's greatest achievement was the return to the true Word of God in the Reformation, and to a very large extent the Counter reformation (both he and I are terrible sinners were it not for God's mercy).

I will not judge Bonhoeffer (that is up to God), but I can judge his actions, and my own in the light of Scripture.

Pax Domini,

Mark

joyfulthanks · Oct 13, 2008

I agree that the topic of his involvement in the anti-Hitler plot is interesting, but I was more looking for information about his theology and how you believe it squares/does not square with mainstream Lutheran theology.

For example, what do you make of his discussions of cheap grace vs. costly grace?

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 13, 2008

contriteheart said:
I agree that the topic of his involvement in the anti-Hitler plot is interesting, but I was more looking for information about his theology and how you believe it squares/does not square with mainstream Lutheran theology.

For example, what do you make of his discussions of cheap grace vs. costly grace?

Sorry for the rant, and yes, his doctrinal and theological positions were for the most part "mainstream", but due to his education and background in the "Evangelical Church", not always "mainstream Confessional".

Again though, how much of his theological and doctrinal writings would have been read or translated had it not been for the "other thing"?

Mark

Addendum: How many great apologists and theologians (Lutheran and otherwise) are never read because of a lack of public knowledge or "notoriety"? Most likely they are in the majority I think.

Till · Oct 14, 2008

contriteheart said:
I agree that the topic of his involvement in the anti-Hitler plot is interesting, but I was more looking for information about his theology and how you believe it squares/does not square with mainstream Lutheran theology.

You would need to actually define "mainstream Lutheran theology". You asked this question in the confessional sub forum. As Mark already said: Bonhoeffer was not a confessional Lutheran. He was very involved in the Ecumenical movement. His theology - even though it is difficult to categorize it - would rather be regarded as liberal.

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Such involvement is akin to shooting an abortionist, or blowing up his clinic. The intent may be noble, but the action is anti-christian and pure sin. Actions such as DB's set a poor example for Christians. Without his actions he would have been just another Evangelical Pastor, no hanging, no Letters from Prison, and no edification and commemoration by various Churches and Synods. If Christians would follow the example that his actions set, just how "Christ like" would we be?

Excuse me Mark, but comparing the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 with the shooting of abortion doctors is ludicrous. And insulting to Count Staufenberg, Bonhoeffer and their fellow conspirers.

Killing is of course not Christ-like. But - assuming that you do not hold to a view of complete pacifism - you will accept that it is sometimes the lesser of two evils. Had the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 suceeded, the lifes of 100 000s probably millions of people could have been saved. To support the conspiracy was not a decision taken easily by Bonhoeffer but he understood clearly that not acting would not have been holier but cowardous.

Thanks,
Till

joyfulthanks · Oct 14, 2008

Till said:
You would need to actually define "mainstream Lutheran theology". You asked this question in the confessional sub forum. As Mark already said: Bonhoeffer was not a confessional Lutheran. He was very involved in the Ecumenical movement. His theology - even though it is difficult to categorize it - would rather be regarded as liberal.

Till,

Thank you for your answer. I'm sorry for my ignorance, but I don't know the finer points of the disagreements between all the various branches of Lutheranism, never having been Lutheran myself.

The reason I asked this in the subforum is that my DH and I have been visiting an LCMS church. I knew enough to know that liberal and conservative Lutherans view things rather differently, and I wanted the LCMS take on Bonhoeffer.

You said that Bonhoeffer's theology would be regarded as liberal by confessional Lutherans. In what regard would he be considered liberal? You mentioned ecumenism, but is it more than that?

I'm not just shooting the breeze here. I'm trying to figure out if I can ever envision myself joining the LCMS church we've been visiting. I appreciate any help you can give me.

BigNorsk · Oct 14, 2008

Bonhoeffer would usually be classified as a neorthodox theologian. He was quite influenced by Karl Barth and his theology.

The biggest difference between Bonhoeffer and Confessional Lutherans would be his acceptance of higher criticism of the Bible and his willingness, desire even to be unionistic, I think he was only limited by not having that many different groups to cooperate with available to him.

I really wouldn't think of Bonhoeffer as Lutheran in his theology but rather a mixed Lutheran-Reformed. He seemed to get away from believing something is true because it is written and turned to the proof of things as the person and his actions. At least that's how his war against cheap grace comes across to me. In it he really seems to me to destroy that grace isn't only cheap, it's free, and it's free because Christ did it all, but it's a bit difficult to tell if that's what he's trying to teach because he was after all trying to correct the people whom seemed totally oblivious to what being a believer means.

Marv

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 14, 2008

Till said:
Excuse me Mark, but comparing the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 with the shooting of abortion doctors is ludicrous. And insulting to Count Staufenberg, Bonhoeffer and their fellow conspirers.

Killing is of course not Christ-like. But - assuming that you do not hold to a view of complete pacifism - you will accept that it is sometimes the lesser of two evils. Had the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 suceeded, the lifes of 100 000s probably millions of people could have been saved. To support the conspiracy was not a decision taken easily by Bonhoeffer but he understood clearly that not acting would not have been holier but cowardous.

Thanks,
Till

I respect your opinions Till, but Staufenberg and the others were not ordained clergy.

You state that it was the lesser of two evils, but as a Pastor he had a third choice; avoid "evils" through prayer, preaching, and teaching; these are the domain of a "Pastor", not violence. Had Bonhoeffer taken the "High Road", no one would have accused him of being a coward. Had he been killed for executing his Pastoral duties, he would have been a true Christian Martyr. I do not consider him as such.

You also stated that

"Had the plot to kill Hitler in 1944 suceeded, the lifes of 100 000s probably millions of people could have been saved."

The fact that it did not may very well be an indication that Bonhoeffer made the wrong choice.

Mark

Till · Oct 15, 2008

MarkRohfrietsch said:
The fact that it did not may very well be an indication that Bonhoeffer made the wrong choice.

Not at all Mark. This plot was and is very, very important. Of course it would have been even better, had it succeeded but also the fact that it was dared at all was important. There was very little resistance within Germany against the Nazi regime and what little there was, has served and does serve as an example, an ideal, on which a new political culture was partly built upon after the war.

Bonhoeffer is not really a Christian martyr, granted. But his willingness to help the conspirers around Staufenberg is admirable. Besides he was not involved in the actual killing plot. His role was to use his contacts in England to provide a line of information between the Western allies and the conspirers. Everything you wrote a pastor should be doing, Bonhoeffer did. As long as he was able to do it. After he was stopped he decided to go further and being German I am thankful to him for what he did and I wished more people would have followed his example.

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 16, 2008

Till said:
Bonhoeffer is not really a Christian martyr, granted. But his willingness to help the conspirers around Staufenberg is admirable. Besides he was not involved in the actual killing plot. His role was to use his contacts in England to provide a line of information between the Western allies and the conspirers.

Hi Till,

I do respect your admiration for Bonhoeffer, however I think it best that we agree to disagree on this one.

While D. B. was not the "trigger man" I still believe that as a "facilitator" he is as culpable as the rest of the conspirators.

Pax Domini,

Mark

joyfulthanks · Oct 16, 2008

Would you guys mind starting a separate thread for the discussion of Bonhoeffer's anti-Hitler involvement? I know I phrased the title of the OP poorly, but I would like to keep this discussion to his theology and how it compares with that of confessional Lutherans.

Thanks.

RadMan · Oct 16, 2008

There has been an angst within me because of the cheap grace comment of Bonhoeffer's comment. Many confessional Lutherans make comments like "His cheap grace smacks of works righteousness and is just a reformed idea". I think they sometimes use that excuse to not hardly do any works, even when the Bible says we do them because we love God. Are we not appreciative of God's grace? Maybe we are but we sometimes don't act like it.

rockytrails · Nov 11, 2008

contriteheart said:
What are your thoughts about Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

That hes dead. proving his plan didnt work to good.

What are your thoughts about Bonhoeffer?

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