What are you thoughts on the end of time?

[SnowyMacie]

In light of a recent increase on concerns/hopes of Jesus' return being soon (within a few years) I am just curios what other like-minded Christians think of Christ's return.

I personally do not see Christ coming back any time soon. I think He will at some point, but Christians have gone off about the "End Times" like this several times in the past, and yet this time they are saying "but this time, we know we are right". I have heard every single argument from a "gut feeling" about it to analyzing scripture to get a date of it. I just do not think it will happen any time soon. Also, it says in scripture that only the Father knows and not even the angels or Jesus Himself knows. The reasoning, I think, behind God doing this is so people will follow and turn to Him for the right reasons.
Furthermore, even if there is some hidden code in scripture I don't want to know. I kind of think of it as knowing the date of your death. Either way, my physical life on Earth is over. I don't know why people want to know. To me, if it is clearly outlined in scripture as many Christians today think it is, then we would probably temporarily abandoned our faith and then maybe a month or year before, get really serious into it.

 

[hopetoday]

ghghjghjghjg

 

[hop]

Looked at from very many aspects, I feel surely it could happen in about a generation or two. Counting the first from yours.

Well I'm not sure about the exact date Christ will return, but I feel Jerusalem's Temple will be rebuilt before I'm dead. Now, that must give you a clue about Christ's return. It's like the last month of pregnancy. You may not know the date but it's there. So close.

 

[Bron]

Well, I try to keep and open mind and a sense of humour about it, since I remember the last two times just in my lifetime that the 'end was nigh' Sure there are a lot of natural upheavals at the moment, but I can't help thinking that the earth has been through all this before - remember when the continents were all joined? Neither do I, but things have changed since then ;-), and I bet there was some heck of an upheaval for that to happen, and yet the earth still keeps turning. I do think a lot of end times teaching is confused with prophecies that have already happened, like the sack of Jerusalem, but of course this is another contraversial topic, but there again, what else do we have WWMC for??
Still, it does seem like we are also reaching some sort of social/ecological crisis and something needs to give, but I also remember all the other great civilisations and empires that have risen and fallen over the millenia - Assyrian, Egyptian, Mayan, Roman....why should we be any different? And the earth goes on turning through it all.

It just seems like if we all do our best to follow Jesus/God's basic teaching to treat everyone as we'd like to be treated, we won't cause any harm in the meantime, and we won't run into trouble if the end does turn out to come.

 

[hop]

Well, I try to keep and open mind and a sense of humour about it, since I remember the last two times just in my lifetime that the 'end was nigh' Sure there are a lot of natural upheavals at the moment, but I can't help thinking that the earth has been through all this before - remember when the continents were all joined? Neither do I, but things have changed since then ;-), and I bet there was some heck of an upheaval for that to happen, and yet the earth still keeps turning. I do think a lot of end times teaching is confused with prophecies that have already happened, like the sack of Jerusalem, but of course this is another contraversial topic, but there again, what else do we have WWMC for??
Still, it does seem like we are also reaching some sort of social/ecological crisis and something needs to give, but I also remember all the other great civilisations and empires that have risen and fallen over the millenia - Assyrian, Egyptian, Mayan, Roman....why should we be any different? And the earth goes on turning through it all.

It just seems like if we all do our best to follow Jesus/God's basic teaching to treat everyone as we'd like to be treated, we won't cause any harm in the meantime, and we won't run into trouble if the end does turn out to come.

You missed out one great civilization to watchout for. Israel!

When Jesus was about to be born, it is quite interesting to note that all the Teachers of the Law who were well-versed in Scripture and knew the place of the Savior's birth, actually missed it when it happened. They helped Herod find it, but themselves remained clueless. We must take care that the same thing does not happen to us.

You mustn't confuse rash guesses of D day (and even more rash 'announcements' of such kind that invariably seek only to kick up some attention) with measured guesses that follow much careful study of Scripture and the message of the times. Everywhere, unlike ever before, very godly men are beginning to sense the approaching fulfiment of what is written in the Scriptures.

I would agree with you that we must be doing whatever we are with ever greater sincerity and care, however, I think it is vital to watch out for critical events. If an economic crisis is about to happen, would you not expect to be aware of it? Likewise, it would be wise to position ourselves concerning the prophesied end.

 

[Bron]

Just some further thoughts, while I respect your opinion and I could very well be wrong also, the following verses say to me that we can't know when the time is, not even guess ....

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief." 2 Peter 3:10

"Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Matthew 24:44

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.Acts 1:7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

 

[lismore]

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

An earlier verse says:

Mark 13:29
Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.

It seems to be saying we will know when it is imminent, but not the exact day or hour.

 

[XtianAgain]

I'm sort of skeptical about this issue. Every year someone is claiming a date and/or time of this happening. As all of you know this is never the case. Doomsayers have been around for the longest and I think people get paranoid during moments of national and global instability.

The signs in the Bible are signs that have happened for thousands of years. I'd venture to guess even before Christ's time.

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

See? In what period of human existence haven't things like this happened?

 

[Bron]

Exactly. And on balance, I feel those verses point more to not knowing when the time will be. If you knew when a thief was coming, you'd keep watch, as the Bible says. And as Xtian says, Christians having been thinking the end is imminent for 2000 years at least, which tells us we really can't know. Common sense would indicate that after making the same claims for all this time, we have good reason to be skeptical.

 

[hop]

Just some further thoughts, while I respect your opinion and I could very well be wrong also, the following verses say to me that we can't know when the time is, not even guess ....

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief." 2 Peter 3:10

Here's the actual context which means the opposite:

People at the time were scoffing at the idea that God said He would come but never actually showed up. So Peter talks about the stealthiness of His appearance. So the point (especially in this context) is to LOOK FORWARD TO THE COMING OF THE LORD especially coz it is going to be stealthy and not very obvious.

The verses next to what you have picked out should put your doubts to rest:

2 Peter 3:11
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY OF GOD AND SPEED ITS COMING (a few other manuscrips add: as you wait eagerly for the day of God to come).


"Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Matthew 24:44

When seen in the larger context of the passage, here too Jesus is actually giving a huge list of details that PEOPLE MUST WATCH OUT FOR as they expect His return. This seems to be more clearly detailed in the following verses of the same passage you've picked out:

Matthew 24: 36-44
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

So here too, the point seems to be to NOT MISS IT by being too preoccupied with the mundane.

Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Again:

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard! Be alert[e]! You do not know when that time will come. 34 It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with their assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35 “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

Acts 1:7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Of all the passages, this one comes close to what you are trying to prove. However, here, it is regarding the 'restoration of the Kingdom'. I think this is a direct question of the apostles as to when Israel (as a political kingdom) would regain its glory (akin to what it enjoyed under David or most importantly Solomon, coz it was a promise given to David the fulfilment of which the Jews awaited now that they had been through much disgrace due to defeat, subjugation and exile). Only here, I think Jesus tries to avoid going into details coz it would be too much for the disciples to digest at the time.

So, I don't think it directly refers to His return. And the recommended deferment of cracking the timing of the 'restoration' is for practical purposes and not for it to remain a mystery.

I appreciate your magnanimity. Thanks for your response too. I would like to add here, that to me, what is more important is to have the right approach to the issue than to prove anyone wrong.

Plz see my responses, to the Scripture portions you've listed, in red.

 

[Bron]

Fair enough, but I'm still not sure how an expansion of the verses I've used disproves my point,as it still means to my eyes that it will be, as you said, stealthy and not obvious. And yes, we shouldn't be arguing to win an argument, and to be honest, I don't personally see this as a be all and end all topic, since as I said, if we follow God to the best of our ability, it won't matter when He comes Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Im_A]

A bad re-run of a terrible ending.

 

[hop]

Exactly. And on balance, I feel those verses point more to not knowing when the time will be.

I think the stress is on being watchful.

If you knew when a thief was coming, you'd keep watch, as the Bible says.

The point I think, is about keeping watch, being expectant and ready.

Like an owner who would keep watch when he knows the timing of the thief, we need to be ready. And, if an owner who knows the timing himself keeps watch, how much more those who don't?



And as Xtian says, Christians having been thinking the end is imminent for 2000 years at least, which tells us we really can't know.

Although I can understand your problem, I don't think this is so. This seems to be the verdict more of skeptics rather than what godly men and women have to say regarding these days.

Common sense would indicate that after making the same claims for all this time, we have good reason to be skeptical.

In a sense Christians have the unique ability to comprehend God and His actions that sometimes don't keep to a beaten path. If Abraham could wait 25 years for the promise of a son to come to pass and yet not get tired about it and believe, then there is good scope for us. The waiting period has run out for the most part. This is not the time to give up. His return is at the door step.

Plz see my comments in red.

As for the issue about you disproving your own point, it was the whole set of references that you had listed in your second post that followed your first, which although had a mildly positive ending was skeptical for the most part.

One would only think you felt it was not necessary to be watchful about the Lord's return given the portions of your references. I felt in more than one of the verses you cited, the point was about being watchful as opposed to merely not knowing the timing (the opposite of which is what you seemed to feel). And you also seem to be in good agreement with a few other skeptics on the thread.

I absolutely agree with you that this issue may not be the end of the world. But even if it is, I don't care if there's a right way to go about a certain matter. That's my side of the story anyway. You are free to disagree.

 

[Bron]

I see your concern is my (and others') lack of apparent concern, but what I was saying is that while I am indeed skeptical that 'this is the end', if we keep doing what Jesus told us, namely, loving others etc, we will not run into trouble in the 'end times' whenever they come, which equates to 'being ready' for this 'thief in the night'. That is my humble take on it, it's very simple, but I don't see the harm in it.
I get the feeling we are talking at cross purposes, but I understand you are coming from a position of concern, which is commendable. I am just clarifying my statements here.

 

[lismore]

See? In what period of human existence haven't things like this happened?

Some of the prophecies are quite specific:

Luke 21:24
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Only in about 1967 did the gentiles loose dominance over Jerusalem. Now it is a Jewish captial once again.

 

[hop]

I see your concern is my (and others') lack of apparent concern, but what I was saying is that while I am indeed skeptical that 'this is the end', if we keep doing what Jesus told us, namely, loving others etc, we will not run into trouble in the 'end times' whenever they come, which equates to 'being ready' for this 'thief in the night'. That is my humble take on it, it's very simple, but I don't see the harm in it.
I get the feeling we are talking at cross purposes, but I understand you are coming from a position of concern, which is commendable. I am just clarifying my statements here.

Bron, you've sealed my lips.



Thanks!!

 

[XtianAgain]

Some of the prophecies are quite specific:

Luke 21:24
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Only in about 1967 did the gentiles loose dominance over Jerusalem. Now it is a Jewish captial once again.

Excellent point on that Lis. Definitely, something to consider.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I don't buy into any of the futurist nonsense that there are things happening and yet to happen here in the 21st century that were foretold in Scripture, with the exception of Christ's return and the resurrection of the dead.

As such I think it's wise to maintain a posture that Jesus may return at any moment, but I don't think that posture looks like trying to decipher current events through Scripture but rather continuing to bring good news to the poor, liberating the oppressed, and seeking justice for those who need it.

 

[lismore]

As such I think it's wise to maintain a posture that Jesus may return at any moment, but I don't think that posture looks like trying to decipher current events through Scripture but rather continuing to bring good news to the poor, liberating the oppressed, and seeking justice for those who need it.

I agree, there is much to be done, so many needy and oppressed people to be helped. And many of the self-appointed prophets like Camping have made very wrong claims which put people off listening to the gospel.

One issue to keep in mind though is that Jesus, although sent by God to the whole world, he was born in Israel. God selected Israel for him to be born in. King Herod was alarmed that there was one born King of the Jews. Jesus still is a Jew and will be the King of the Jews. So to keep an eye on what is going on with Jesus's countrymen the Jews and Israel can be of significance. While Jesus is the saviour of all men, he was born and lived and died in Israel.

Indeed in the past 70 years there has been more happening with the Jews and Israel than for many centuries.

100 years ago there was no nation of Israel. Now it is one of the world's smallest but most prosperous. Not a perfect nation by any means but a nation once again.

Jesus needs somewhere to return to, a location.

The bible e.g Zechariah says that would be Jerusalem in Israel. 70 years ago that would have made no sense. Now it does.

Therefore we do not know the day or the hour, but it seems more feasible now.

 

[Witchy Bee]

"There will come a time when there are no human beings remaining to remember that anyone ever existed, or that our species ever did anything. There will be no one left to remember Aristotle or Cleopatra, let alone you. Everything that we did and built and wrote and thought and discovered will be forgotten and all of this will have been for nothing. Maybe that time is coming soon and maybe it's millions of years away, but even if we survive the collapse of our sun, we will not survive the collapse of the universe. There was time before organisms experienced consciousness and there will be time after. If the inevitability of human oblivion worries, I encourage you to ignore it. God knows that's what everybody else does."

I don't know if Jesus will return or not, but regardless, the above is still true. I'm not too worried about the end of time. People who sit around waiting for the rapture or whatever seem to forget to live.