What are we doing here?

Delvianna said:

#10


What is the root of "spiritual gifts"? The Holy Spirits power through a person. It is literally God using that person and feeding them answers, wisdom, guidance, insight. So the root is still God, and like in my previous post #17 you can make sure it’s accurate.

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I am not arguing that God is the root, but there is no other office in the Church to which you would owe loyalty. Each one is subject to your personal decrees or may you sometime be mistaken?

How do you know, what basis is there for your judgement?

Delvianna said:

I just gave you scripture, so no. It's not "me" saying it.

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That is where you are wrong, yet you don’t realize it. When both people are presenting scripture, it is no longer scripture arguing, but another’s private interpretation

Christ said He would build a Church, not just give us a book and cry “every man for himself, good luck figuring it out”
I agree that we do not rely solely on people because any one can claim to speak for God, but what is there basis for doing so? God gave us a hierarchy of authority from scripture: Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors.
Jesus said He would not leave us orphans meaning that we are adrift to figure it all out on our own.
Apostle means one who is sent, which is as an ambassador who represents the diplomatic interests of a kingdom. They have the authority of the king and speak for Him. They are human and can make mistakes, but we have to contemplate very prayerfully before making that judgement. Even if they are found morally wanting, their office still must be respected as it is established by God. As king David said of Saul, “I cannot raise my hand against God’s anointed”, although he knew Saul wished to slay him and was behaving with evil
When we ignore Apostles, it is though we are in rebellion against the kingdom and expect God to ignore His promises given to His Church in favor of our private interpretation.
So your way feels right to you? You are aware that scripture in proverbs says, there is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death
The spirit realm is complex, and the one thing that we know is that evil spirits are capable of tempting us. They do that by feelings. They tempt to make the evil seem good and the good seem evil, that is what they do. So if we rely on spiritual feelings to guide us in scripture, we can be lead astray. An exorcist once said, God is not the only one that broadcasts on that channel.


Your comments seem to tell me that you are relying only on yourself and blaming God if you get it wrong, because you say God will personally open the scriptures to you, which is what one means when he says scripture interprets itself.
Really? That is what Jehovahs witnesses also tell me. Do I believe them? If not, then why are they wrong and you right? If they are lead astray, how do you know that you are not?

I have brought up a work from the second century that is very scriptural based as it references I believe every book in the Bible.
Would you read it? Iraneus, Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching

It could provide insights to you for further study, as scripture also says it is useful for reproof, correction and training in righteousness
How can one be reproved who refuses to listen? How can one be corrected who says, no thanks I am fine? How can one be trained who refuses instruction?
It is interesting that the Laodiceans were mentioned in another post. What is their sin for which God calls them to repent? It can be summed up in two words, “No thanks”, as they say I am rich, well fed and have need of nothing.

God says they are miserable, blind, poor and naked. Such are those that refuse correction, instruction and training. Humility demands that we ask for help. God does not like His gifts to receive the reply, No thanks.

I say this not to condemn you, but to encourage you. God loves you and wants the best of His kingdom for you. How can He give it to you, if you refuse?

Delvianna said:

But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. - Matthew 23:8

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I agree that we do not learn from a man, God is the teacher, but He has appointed those over us and have all saints working together for the Body of Christ. If it is “every man for himself” then there is no body

bèlla said:

Why can’t you trust the Lord to lead His servant? Has He given you a word in respect to @Delvianna or are your comments wholly yours? Given what I’ve read I doubt that’s so but I thought I’d ask.

There’s a time and season for all things. We don’t need to be at the same place or doing the same things. She’ll get where she needs to be as long as she holds firm to His unchanging hand. And that holds true for us all.

~bella

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God compels me to speak. If I see someone in error, do I not offer help? Does God say to leave everyone to their own devices? I cannot force her to listen, but as I listen to her, I can carry on a conversation.
The way of the Lord is not fantasy nor pretense .Our faith requires action. It is not evil or superfluous to encourage that action. We do not sit idly by and pretend all will be good. As it says in Ezekiel 33

6 And if the watchman see the sword coming, and sound not the trumpet: and the people look not to themselves, and the sword come, and cut off a soul from among them: he indeed is taken away in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at the hand of the watchman. 7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: Thus you have spoken, saying: Our iniquities, and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them: how then can we live?

11 Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the children of thy people: The justice of the just shall not deliver him, in what day soever he shall sin: and the wickedness of the wicked shall not hurt him, in what day soever he shall turn from his wickedness: and the just shall not be able to live in his justice, in what day soever he shall sin. 13 Yea, if I shall say to the just that he shall surely live, and he, trusting in his justice, commit iniquity: all his justices shall be forgotten, and in his iniquity, which he hath committed, in the same shall he die. 14 And if I shall say to the wicked: Thou shalt surely die: and he do penance for his sin, and do judgment and justice, 15 And if that wicked man restore the pledge, and render what he had robbed, and walk in the commandments of life, and do no unjust thing: he shall surely live, and shall not die.

16 None of his sins, which he hath committed, shall be imputed to him: he hath done judgment and justice, he shall surely live. 17 And the children of thy people have said: The way of the Lord is not equitable: whereas their own way is unjust. 18 For when the just shall depart from his justice, and commit iniquities, he shall die in them. 19 And when the wicked shall depart from his wickedness, and shall do judgments, and justice: he shall live in them. 20 And you say: The way of the Lord is not right, I will judge every one of you according to his ways, O house of Israel.



As members of the Body of Christ, we owe it to eachother to speak, but not of ourselves, rather as we see God and His Church speaking

Delvianna said:

You just misunderstood everything I said, including my point. But I really don't want to say it again, so that's fine. I follow God's direction and that's all I need.


I'm refusing man, not God. Don't conflate the two. Specially when I said I'm making sure that what man says is accurate. But somehow you seem to think I'm saying something else entirely... anyway....

God bless.

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You say you are not refusing God, yet offer no evidence. I did not come to you. You came to my thread and decided to post. If you are relying on God, why come to me?
Did you just wish to throw shade at my thoughts or discourage others from considering them?
It is a simple question. Have we considered writings of men close to the Apostles, let’s look at them and see?
I see no evidence that you have even read the writings proposed, but just decided to puff yourself up and tell us that you do not have to do so. That again begs the question, If you are following God, why are you here? You accuse me of not listening to you, incorrectly by the way, but you came and did not even agree to participate with the OP. If you had, you would have shown me that you read the writings

bèlla said:

That is not the same as a specific word from the Lord concerning @Delvianna. The Holy Spirit did not direct you to address this topic with her. If she has no interest in doing as you suggest that’s the answer. You have to respect her boundaries and ability to decide for herself. She’s not a child.

~bella

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As I said to her, she came to my thread. Not to edify nor participate but to oppose without cause
Those are the actions of a person with an issue
Her posts only served to disrupt my OP. I addressed her politely, but you do not like what I said. That’s not my fault, nor a charge of harassing her in my thread. If she was not interested in the topic, she had the option not to post. She chose to continue to attempt to derail the thread
She needs to respect my boundaries, or is it your argument she can impose her boundaries on me in my own conversation?

As the OP says, what are we doing here?

Delvianna said:

Suggestions to answer the question. You are being very defensive and accusatory by saying I'm denying God just because I said I make sure that what man tells me follows and is in line with God. But for some reason you want to be combative. Do whatever you want to do. I'm not even definitively demanding you do anything but for some reason you want to be aggressive with me and claim I'm not accepting God WRONGLY just because I made the comment that I place a hierarchy on the information that is shared with me. I have tried to explain my answer multiple times despite you misunderstanding me, and I dont need to be lectured when all I was offering was suggestions based on the scripture I read.

So I'm bowing out of this ridiculous thread since you dont want discussions, you just want to argue and toss around accusations while claiming to speak for God.

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You didn’t offer any suggestions
Not at least that we could objectively see
What is the difference between you and a robot with a broken record saying I am following God coming in here ?
You accuse me of telling you that you are not following God untrue I don’t know that you follow Him or not because you won’t articulate
For all I know you may or may not be following God, but you have not shown any evidence nor even shown you want to have a discussion

You have become a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal

What a distraction! Yet we need to reach for what is really being said. Bella and Delvianna came into this thread and appeared to offer no useful discussion, but did they?

My OP began with works of Iraneus and Polycarp. Iraneus wrote against heresies which was a refutation of Gnosticism.
Gnosticism was a heresy concerned with secret knowledge, and was dualistic. Dualism is the belief that God created spirit and a lessor god, the demiurge, created matter. They say spirt is good and matter is evil. Spiritualism is good and materialism is evil.
Satan is an angel of light and he is capable of deceiving us if we let him. We sin in material things so it is easy to convince us that matter is evil. People are flawed, commit sins, and make mistakes, so it is easy to to convince us to not submit to men, only submit to God. It sounds really good and spiritual, but is it what God wants from us, and what scripture tells us to do?

Satan is a spirit, and in his pride, he refuses to serve as God commands. Satan uses his tricks to get us to love spirit, hate matter, and then join him in his rebellion. What does God tell us to do?

Well, first off, we have to dismiss the notion that matter is evil because we know God is Creator and it is through Jesus that all things were made. God rested on the seventh day, saw His creation and said it was very good. There is no demiurge that created matter in opposition to God. Satan likes to get us to think that there was, yet matter is not in opposition to God, rather it opposes Satan because it steals his pride and would force him to humble himself. That is something he said he would never do. The cry of the rebellious angels was, “we will not serve”

It sounds good to say that we wish to serve only God and will not submit to man, but are we serving God in doing that? From scripture we can say no, we are not serving God by denying our fellow man, rather in rebellion against the will of God. How so?

It should be apparent. When we come to Jesus, we are supposed to deny ourselves. We die to sin in baptism as we join Him in death and then are raised to new life in Christ. Old things have passed away, all things have become new.

Jesus says he who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted. The greatest among you will be your servant
We give in to temptation when we lose sight of that. Paul rebuked the Corinthians when they had divisions among themselves and some were saying I submit only to Christ. 1Cor1:12 We are called to be servants of all, and we are commanded to love our enemies.
Our enemies reveal something that is lacking in us. This allows it to be revealed to us, so that we may repent and have life. For that, we should be eternally grateful, although it may be painful to go thorough the process of loving our enemies
Peter also tells us to submit to those appointed over us. If we say we submit only to God and refuse to serve man, we are in disobedience to God. 1 Peter 2

. 13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God's sake: whether it be to the king as excelling; 14 Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of the good: 15 For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

16 As free, and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.


Iraneus was an early Church leader and very close to the original Apostles. It would be good to read what he had to say. I invite everyone to read the Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching. Has anyone read it and have any comments?

To Bella and Delvianna, I say God loves you and does not want you to be alone. He has not only provided a book for you to read but has given us all many teachers over the past 2000 years from whom we can learn
We need to humble ourselves and accept teaching. If we say we are not a child and don’t need teaching, this too is rebellion against Our Lord. For He says, unless we humble ourselves and become as little children, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. That is the word from the Holy Spirit to you two personally