What are they afraid of?

Originally posted by SnuP
As my pastor has said, I would rather have error then not to have liberty. It is easier to correct error then to remove bondage.

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Ain't that the truth!  Been there, done that, bought the TShirt, and made the movie  

as ive said what happens on the outside is just an expression of how i feel inside - i just glad that im free to do that without being judged by people!

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Go tell King David that, remember how he put away his wives for that reason."

Big difference between then and now isn't it. Neither you or I are a king among other things. so again, don't be a cain

"1. How would getting crazy for the Lord make you sin?

2. Where does it say to praise the Lord in quietness?
"

1. paul expressly talks about being chaotic in worship and how it is unbiblical and unGodly.
2. I never said be quiet, but don't equate being loud with order either.

you need to remember that you need to not be distracting. You ARE your brothers keeper.

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The very first sermon I heard after putting up this last post about worshipping, was guess what?

You got it, King David and how he was belittled by his wife for worshipping God with "all his might".
By Dr. Micheal Useff (sp? ) He was on the radio today before I started work.

Here are some quotes. "Those who do nothing always critisize those who do something"
"Pride kept her from praise and worship" talking about his wife. "They honor me with there lips, but there hearts are far away from me, the bible says,  because on the inside there full of bitterness, envy, strife,and pride"

He also talked about how people worshipped according to the image that others thought of them. They were afraid to let it loose due to what they thought people would think about them. And how funny and sad it is to see these people go to sports games and scream and cheer until there hoarse in the throat, but when they come into church they sure are quiet. There worship seems lifeless, as if they can't wait for it to be over.All the while they critisize(on the inside) others for how they, calling it fake and phoney.

Well who is the one fake and phoney?

You say that there is a big difference between "now and then", but then you say don't be a cain, which is much older than David?? Cain killed his brother, your trying to kill my worship! With your cold dead heart of stone!

By the way, I don't have any problems with quiet worship. You won't ever hear me say anything about others, and there worship. The devil trys me, by saying "look how that person worships, doesn't it just get on your nerves?"
I don't listen to the devil, I close my eyes, and get my focus back onto what I am there for at that time, and that is to worship. I don't always get loud, there are many times I am quiet. But there are people here that say you should never get loud and praise God with all your heart, which is certainly not biblical.

The Lord doesn't always lead me to worship, it is when I focus on what he has, is, and is going to do in my life that stirs me up on the inside. To tell you the truth, I don't believe He leads me at all in the way of "oh, its time for you to worship Me."
I think that to many people go on what they feel, instead of what they know. Your feelings will trick you, but get out of the flesh and into the spirit, by winning the battle in your mind.
Learn to harness your emotions with your mind, and your mouth(prayer) and the flesh will follow.

Whats the first thing that Jesus said to do in His blueprint for prayer?

Alot of times we as Christians get it backwards, we pray for things, then thank Him after we get them. If you really expected them in faith you would be thanking Him before, during,and after. I am guilty of this, but I am developing a better worship style. I want to praise Him all the time, not just for 20 minutes at church!

Joyce Myers says she must say "Jesus I love you" 500 times a day, and she said she wasn't exagerating either. She believes God's word, even when things are tough, and her feelings are telling her something else.
Well look where she is at now! Prais the Lord!!

Originally posted by SUNSTONE

If you see someone shouting and dancing to the Lord and you think they are just showing off, then I believe you are listening to the devil.
You are to rebuke a brother of sin, not the way they worship. You don't know whats going on inside, maybe they are faking it. Whats that to you?
But maybe they believed that God was going to answer a prayer, and God did at that time making them shout for joy.

Let me ask you this, what are you doing looking at them in the first place?
I mean shouldn't you have your eyes closed, and focusing on what God has done in your life, what He is doing in your life, and how He talks to you and answers your prayers?
Maybe thats it, maybe God isn't doing anything in your life because you are to focused on other people and not enough on God. Maybe thats why I don't see anyone here over in the prayer forums, or putting up answered prayers as a testimony.

Why don't you go tell kind David that he is out of line for praising God the way he DOES!! Because he isn't dead, and I can bet you that he is shouting even louder, dancing even harder, and clapping just as loud as he can get, in heaven with God, than he ever did on earth. Probably because of critics telling him that he should consider others when he worships God.

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God is telling me to put this up again, with the emphasis on the paragraph "Maybe thats it, maybe God isn't doing anything in your life because...."

Originally posted by shout2thelord
as ive said what happens on the outside is just an expression of how i feel inside - i just glad that im free to do that without being judged by people!

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That is cool. However remember that a part of your worship to God is remembering who is around you and helping them to worship God with you.  It is many times a communal thing.  So how we treat others is part of our worship.  and this also applies at all times.

Originally posted by SnuP
Unfortunately you missed my point. One of the most powerful times of worship is when most of the church is layed out on the floor. But I'm not going to allow some religious person to stop me from worshiping God just because they are distracted.

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I understand that and I think there is afine line between letting other people tell you how to worship God and improperly worshipping God and thus distracting others. 




Looks like we are saying the same thing.

I worship God based upon the vision that God gives to me. I someone who has no autority over me come to me a says that I need to stop because what I'm doing is distracting, then I'm going to direct them to speak to the one who I'm am subject, instead of bypassing the bishop's authority. I am not putting God in a box. I am saying, don't be a hinderance to me, just because the enemy has chosen to use my worship to distract you. [/B]

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I think it is situational.  If someone comes up to you you shoudl consider what they are saying however you do not have to go with it.  Sometimes they could wrong but I think God uses the most unlikely people to get our attention.  Look at who God used to get David's attention after He sinned with the Basheba thing.  So in some situations I think you would be right with what you said but not always. 

Don't tell me to stop being a distraction. YOU STOP BEING DISTRACTED. The responciblity is yours for your own worship. Don't make me the scapegoat because you can't get you forcus right. [/B]

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But you have a responsibility also for others. And I think that my repsonsiblity to my own worship might mean that I need to tell someone else that they are distracting. But maybe I would be just doing it through my flesh.  See I am jsut saying it is not so easy. One must look to the Spirit for direction and not go as one feels but how the Spirit directs them.  I think too often we either just do as we feel like doing or even worse do not even pay attention to the Spirit. 

See I am not against you or your side but I am not against the other side either. 

Originally posted by Blackhawk

But you have a responsibility also for others. And I think that my repsonsiblity to my own worship might mean that I need to tell someone else that they are distracting. But maybe I would be just doing it through my flesh.  See I am jsut saying it is not so easy. One must look to the Spirit for direction and not go as one feels but how the Spirit directs them.  I think too often we either just do as we feel like doing or even worse do not even pay attention to the Spirit. 

See I am not against you or your side but I am not against the other side either. 

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Well . . . I agree to a point.

In my opinion, if I am distracted, I either need to change positions so as that person no longer distracts me.  Or, ask myself what is it about what they are doing that distracts me? 

Are they chattin' away with the people behind, to the side, front and back?  If this is the case I ask them to stop talking.  If they want to chat they can go outside to do that. 

Or is their style of worship too noisy?  Are they more  demonstrative than I am?  Those are things that I can change in me.  I can move to another seat or just ask God to help me not be distracted.

Usually, the only activity that truely distracts me from intering into worship is someone chattin' away with their neighbor.  But even then, I need to come to a place where I can close myself in with God and not be distracted at all.

As to my own activity . . .the spirit is subject to the people He's moving on.  I can dance but I don't have to run into the people around me.  I can shout but I can also try and make sure that my neighbors ear is not right in front of my mouth.  And so forth and so on.

This reminds me of a missionary who came to the church I use to attend.  I don't remember the country he was a missionary to but he told the story of how several missionary's from different groups were participating in a worship service. 

This missionary (Assembly of God), was standing on the platform right next to another missionary from a more conservative denomination. 

As they worshiped during the song service, the AG missionary had his eyes closed and his hands raised and he was singin' along and deep into worshipping God.

Well, at some point, a woman began to slither down the isle and it was very obvious that a demon was involved.  The other missionary had his eyes open and could see this woman approaching the platform.

Well, his denomination did not believe in this kind of stuff, so what was he to do?  He looked at the AG missionary and he still had his eyes closed and his hands raised.  He was totally oblivious to what was happening.

The missionary became fearful but did not know what to do.  He kept looking back and forth, the AG man, then back at this woman who had now reached the platform and was coming up towards them.

Finely, as the woman got right up in front of them, the missionary grabbed the hand of the AG missionary and shoved it onto the head of the women and said, "in the name of Jesus".

The AG missionary, of course was totally stunned in his being  jerked out of worship.  But the demon was cast out and the woman was delievered and set free.

Personally, I think God has a very good sense of humor.  And this was one display of it.  

So as SnuP said, "we must stop being distracted".  We are responsible for our own thoughts and what  we allow our minds to think on.  We cannot hold others responsible for what we feel or think. 

Phil 4:8 "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

Originally posted by Blackhawk




But you have a responsibility also for others. 

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You know what, your right, I do have a responsibility for others. I will keep that in mind, as I shout to the Lord, with raised hands and tears running down my face. Showing my brothers and sisters in Christ that, if you are not in a stage of worship like this, then there is either something wrong, or your just to young to appretiate the Lord in this manner.I don't look at others, especially if there going to bring me down, I look at God who is lifting me up!

The spirit doesn't lead you into worship, that would be like a coach asking his team to praise him for the excellent job he is doing.

I believe that personal worship if a necessity for corperate worship.
I also believe that it is impossible for humans to accieve corperate worship, unless God Himself leads us into corperate worship. But we must start somewhere, and that somewhere is personal worship. When God moves us beyound just personal worship it becomes a blend of the two, and it is beautiful. You are an individual body part that is worshiping God, and then He joins your worship to the other members of the Body and the Body sings as the different expersions come together. your sences expand to include the other members, but your focas stays the same.

It is impossible to come into one mind and accord by our own power. But as all the sheep set there focas souly upon the shepard that unity is acceved by the Spirit. It will never be accieved if we keep blaming other for our own inability to touch heaven. We have to set our affections souly upon Jesus and not worry about anything or anyone else. Otherwise we are being self-centered instead of God-centered.

Worship depends completely upon our ability to become God-centered. And to the measure that we can focus upon Jesus in personal worship, that is the measure that we will be able to focas upon Jesus in personal worship. Because the focas never changes the two forms are equal and are linked. You cannot have corperate without personal.

Originally posted by SnuP
I believe that personal worship if a necessity for corperate worship.
I also believe that it is impossible for humans to accieve corperate worship, unless God Himself leads us into corperate worship. But we must start somewhere, and that somewhere is personal worship. When God moves us beyound just personal worship it becomes a blend of the two, and it is beautiful. You are an individual body part that is worshiping God, and then He joins your worship to the other members of the Body and the Body sings as the different expersions come together. your sences expand to include the other members, but your focas stays the same.

It is impossible to come into one mind and accord by our own power. But as all the sheep set there focas souly upon the shepard that unity is acceved by the Spirit. It will never be accieved if we keep blaming other for our own inability to touch heaven. We have to set our affections souly upon Jesus and not worry about anything or anyone else. Otherwise we are being self-centered instead of God-centered.

Worship depends completely upon our ability to become God-centered. And to the measure that we can focus upon Jesus in personal worship, that is the measure that we will be able to focas upon Jesus in personal worship. Because the focas never changes the two forms are equal and are linked. You cannot have corperate without personal.

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Ain't that the truth! 

That reminds me of one of the childrens musicals I directed at the church I attended.  There were about 60 kids (3rd - 6th graders) and one of the songs had the group split into 3 groups and each group was singing something different from the other two, all at the same time.

It took a lot of work but the night of the performance the congregation was in awe/shock, as each group did their part flawlessly.

God does not require that we worship him as carbine copies of each other.  He wants us to do our part amongst all the other parts and He expects that we will do it together and all at the same time.  Producing a beautiful sound and a sweet aroma towards Him . . . Who it's all about anyway. 

Once while in a worship service, God gave me a vision. I saw a great mass of people in a hugh auditorium. There where different stages and platforms. Everyone was worshiping God to the song that was playing in the worship service that I was in. The people where seperated into different groups. Each group was worshiping God in a different way, most were dancing. As I beheld it the groups where interacting, and it seemed as if the whole thing was choreographed. The whole thing was one large dance, and each group was dancing a part in the dance. Like a song with many singers each singing their distinct part.

As I opened my eyes, to my amazement I realized that each person in my church was dancing one of the little dances that I had seen. When I closed my eyes I knew that what God saw in all of our seperate little dances, was something more beautiful then anyone with just their naked eye could ever understand.

I am sure that there were some who were there, who were distracted and felt that it all was disruptive. But I tell you, that it is those people who are outside of God's flow, and are missing out. And they are judging out of a religeous spirit, the same spirit that the pharicees had.

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
You know what, your right, I do have a responsibility for others. I will keep that in mind, as I shout to the Lord, with raised hands and tears running down my face. Showing my brothers and sisters in Christ that, if you are not in a stage of worship like this, then there is either something wrong, or your just to young to appretiate the Lord in this manner.I don't look at others, especially if there going to bring me down, I look at God who is lifting me up!

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Why does one have to be in a state that they are so emotional?  I think you are confusing a great emotional experience during worship with what actual worship is.  God called His people in the Bible to sometimes sing.  sometimes they were told to put on sack cloths and repent and other times they were to be still and just listen. In each of these times they were worshipping God. Sometimes worship is very emotional but other times it is not.  

This statement is what really bothers me with your post. " Showing my brothers and sisters in Christ that, if you are not in a stage of worship like this, then there is either something wrong, or your just to young to appretiate the Lord in this manner."   I am so oppossed to this statement that I do not know what to say exactly.  To me it is very arrogant and short sighted.   

The spirit doesn't lead you into worship, that would be like a coach asking his team to praise him for the excellent job he is doing. [/B]

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Huh? God tells us to praise Him right? He commands this right?  So that is "like a coach asking his team to praise him for the excellent job he is doing."  The Spirit helps us do what the Father wantsus to do.  One of the main things that the Father wants us to do is worship Him. 

Quaffer,

Nice post. I agree with it basically.  I think we are really closer than it appears in the way we approach worship. You tend to be a little more free in your worship and I tend to think about how my and other people's worship affects others more. Both sides of this taken to extremes I believe are wrong. However I think we both do not take them to such extremes but are closer to the middle.  It is probably denominational stresses and language that pulls us apart more than what we should be. See I am come from a more conservative denomination when it comes to worship styles.  Now I do not oppose more radical forms but my church does not do them often and I see the benefits of the more traditional (as fasr as the American chruch) styles. 

For example I like contemporary choruses but their is just something about the hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy" that I think only is done justice when it is played in a traditional hymnal style and with Paino and organ as the only instruments. It is so powerful and the word Holy does not become a feel good word in which I feel like it has in some contemporary songs.  This is just my opinon. 

 

I think that there is something wrong if there is no emotion within worship. As I have said, worship is really a love language between me and God. If you are being intimate with your wife and there is a lack of emotion then there is something wrong. If you are being intimate with God and there is a lack of emotion there is something wrong. And you are just facking it. The truth is that most worship services are just a fraud. They should be called morbid services.The best times that a man has with his wife are the ones where the emotions, the passion takes over. The same is true with God. The best worship times with God are when the passion takes over. There is no passion when you are too busy worrying about what your neighbor thinks. Every time of worship should be a passionate expression of love for God. It does not matter what form that they are displayed. I think that too many people err in thinking that emotionalism doesn't belong in church. The truth is that if you are not emotional about God then you don't love Him. If there is no emotionalism in your church then you church is dead. If there is no emotionalism in you then you are dead. And yes it is true that all emotionalism should be balanced with the word. But if you tell someone to stop displaying there emotion toward God then you have commited a grave sin. And if I was the leader in a church where someone did that repeatedly, I throw him out and I would not care how good his motives were. Emotionalism is more important then the so called "reverance for the house of god". And yes I meant to use a lower case 'g'. I am the House of God. Have reverance for my worship of Him. If it is true worship of Him then no one has any business repramanding me for how I worship exept my leadership.

I always see the "singing session" part of the service as having 2 parts:

Part 1 (PRAISE): Praise type songs that are fast songs, where you make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Where there's clapping dancing shouts of hallelujah etc.

Part 2 (WORSHIP): then comes the more quite solemn part were the slow songs are played and people are in a more worshipful mood.

In both parts, of course, emotion is involved. How can one possibly love and praise and worship God without any emotion??

Now how those emotions are manifested vary from clapping to lifting of hands to swaying to crying to shouting etc. Just let go as the Spirit leads you. If you wanna clap, clap, if you wanna lift your hands go ahead, if you wanna sit and bow your head so be it, if you feel led to dance, do it.

but whatever it is, do it in love ie dont stick out like a sore thumb and draw attention to yourself, distracting others. dont cause your bro to stumble. eg if you are in a traditional service and no one wants to clap or lift hands, dont be different and cause others to focus on you, instead of Jesus. Dont jump around and dance and distract others if no one else is doing that. Do what I did, move to another church where everyone else is doing it!

that said, the reason why i dont like traditional services is that they are too routine and basically so dead. its stand up, sing hymn no 123 and then sit down. there's just no annointing. i rem my ex pastor preached a whole sermon on lifting holy hands to the Lord when praising, how its biblical and right to do so. in the end, no one save 2 or 3 responded. lifting hands is so basic. can you imagine loving someone without ever stretching out your hands to embrace them? if we do that for our loved ones, how much more God?

""Those who do nothing always critisize those who do something""

1. I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying don't be distractful, BIG difference. Better to be causious then sin being bold.

"Well who is the one fake and phoney?"

Sun, you're off on a rant and not reading posts. Never was it said that you should sing or dance, never was it say you must be quiet. What WAS said was you shouldn't be distracting. This may involve you not dancing around in the middle of the service, or keeping your volume down at a certain moment. That's the problem Cain had, he couldn't control himself when confronted with a situation where he didn't get his own way. Worship in church is about you worshiping IN A CORPERATE setting, thus you must conduct yourself as such lest you become a stumbling block.

"I also believe that it is impossible for humans to accieve corperate worship, unless God Himself leads us into corperate worship"

I agree in a way. Humans are naturally selfish so they want personal worship over corperate worship. That is not the way it was in the beginning, and I don't think it should be that way now. If a toe wants to go somewhere the body doesn't want to, the toe shouldn't go, or the WHOLE body should, there is no seperation.

I don't understand why some of you can't understand this one point.

With any form of expression, there will ALWAYS be atleast one person who is distracted by it.

There is always going to be some one who is distracted if God leads you in a dance. There is always going to be someone distracted if God leads you to cry. There is always going to be someone distracted if God leads you to raise you hands. There is always going to be some one distracted, always.

So what you are saying amounts to, "you can never do these things in a corperate setting, because there will always be some one who is distracted or the potential for some one to be distracted."

That is just plan bogas and you need to repent for trying to limit our expressions of love to our God.

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Why does one have to be in a state that they are so emotional?  I think you are confusing a great emotional experience during worship with what actual worship is.  God called His people in the Bible to sometimes sing.  sometimes they were told to put on sack cloths and repent and other times they were to be still and just listen. In each of these times they were worshipping God. Sometimes worship is very emotional but other times it is not.  

This statement is what really bothers me with your post. " Showing my brothers and sisters in Christ that, if you are not in a stage of worship like this, then there is either something wrong, or your just to young to appretiate the Lord in this manner."   I am so oppossed to this statement that I do not know what to say exactly.  To me it is very arrogant and short sighted.   



Huh? God tells us to praise Him right? He commands this right?  So that is "like a coach asking his team to praise him for the excellent job he is doing."  The Spirit helps us do what the Father wantsus to do.  One of the main things that the Father wants us to do is worship Him. 

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Got Ya!

You think that people should worship a certian way, but when I say the same thing in different words, you get offended!

Please don't tell people how to worship, it does no good and is unbiblical. If a saint wants to get crazy and do back flips screaming about the glorys that God has done in his life, then whats that to you? 

1. Was David right or wrong for worshipping with "all his might"?

2.Where does it say in the bible that there are wrong ways to worship? ( I know it says, they honor me with there lips, but there hearts are far from me. Maybe the conservitive side should look to themselves and see if there walk lines up, because the fruits of praise sure doesn't sound like it.) Love the Lord with all your heart.

[Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things,.....] 1cor 13:4-7 Love your bother as yourself.

3. Are you being provoked, by someones worship?

Originally posted by Outspoken
""Those who do nothing always critisize those who do something""

1. I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying don't be distractful, BIG difference. Better to be causious then sin being bold.

"Well who is the one fake and phoney?"

Sun, you're off on a rant and not reading posts. Never was it said that you should sing or dance, never was it say you must be quiet. What WAS said was you shouldn't be distracting. This may involve you not dancing around in the middle of the service, or keeping your volume down at a certain moment. That's the problem Cain had, he couldn't control himself when confronted with a situation where he didn't get his own way. Worship in church is about you worshiping IN A CORPERATE setting, thus you must conduct yourself as such lest you become a stumbling block.

"I also believe that it is impossible for humans to accieve corperate worship, unless God Himself leads us into corperate worship"

I agree in a way. Humans are naturally selfish so they want personal worship over corperate worship. That is not the way it was in the beginning, and I don't think it should be that way now. If a toe wants to go somewhere the body doesn't want to, the toe shouldn't go, or the WHOLE body should, there is no seperation.

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Who was I talking to, you are LouisBooth?

Show me these verses that say "corperate worship" ?

Tell me how that fits in with David praising God with all his might?