What are the Weaknesses of Evolution?

LittleNipper said:

And this allele frequency has been shown to happen when and do what exactly? I'd like to see it happen. Can you bring about one for everyone to see?

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Have you ever heard of genetic fingerprinting?
It works because we all have a unique secuence of DNA - different allelles and different junk DNA - it really is that simple!!!

NailsII said:

Have you ever heard of genetic fingerprinting?
It works because we all have a unique secuence of DNA - different allelles and different junk DNA - it really is that simple!!!

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I know, but that doesn't make one a relative to a butter bean, because their DNA happens to be close. It is not the closness that matters but the minute difference in the DNA that makes humans, human & chimps nothing more than chimps.

Inan3 said:

It's not "who" it comes from. It's that the evidence is not compelling enough to refute the creation of Genesis. Show me the evidence. Show me that evidence that PROVES without a shadow of a doubt that Genesis 1-11 is wrong. I don't want someone's "well because it is" proof. Keep it to yourself if that is all you have.

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If the bible is the literal word of god, what do you make of these passages:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Exodus 21


1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:
2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 "But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' 6 then his master must take him before the judges. [a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15 "Anyone who attacks father or his mother must be put to death.
16 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
18 "If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist and he does not die but is confined to bed, 19 the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.
20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be p1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."unished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth. Numbers 31
Vengeance on the Midianites

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."

3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.


7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. 32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

So, slavery and forced amrriage of captured women is acceptable.

As is the murder of women and children becaused god said so.

Literal truth guys - something must be wrong here.

LittleNipper said:

I know, but that doesn't make one a relative to a butter bean, because their DNA happens to be close. It is not the closness that matters but the minute difference in the DNA that makes humans, human & chimps nothing more than chimps.

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The quote was an indication of the large amount of genetic difference found in a population of humans - the same would be present in any species.
WE share common genes/allelles, yet have enormous differences. Again, this is predicted by evolutionary theory but not be creation. How much more evidence do you need?

LittleNipper said:

Specalization, would seem to indicate a narrowing of abilities as opposed to a broad range or highly flexable. That doesn't sound very progressive.

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Like our ability to feed an oxygen-craving brain as opposed to oxygen-craving muscles like our chimp cousins?
That's probably why they are up to 8 times stronger than we are, and we are profoundly more mentally agile than they are.
I'd call it a huge progression.

Evidence - design flaws taken from wellcome.com.

Illustration of DNA difference in humans and chimps.

Illustration of genetic variation and relationshipships between primates.

LittleNipper said:

I know, but that doesn't make one a relative to a butter bean, because their DNA happens to be close. It is not the closness that matters but the minute difference in the DNA that makes humans, human & chimps nothing more than chimps.

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hope you looked at the sites I linked you

NailsII said:

Evidence - design flaws taken from wellcome.com.

Illustration of DNA difference in humans and chimps.

Illustration of genetic variation and relationshipships between primates.

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No one who believes the scriptures denies that man has degenerated. It is obvious by the firstly the decline of age. Where men once live 900+ years they now mostly live to less than 100 years. The Lord stopped the process by giving them in general at least 70 years. Had He not done this man would be extinct.

This degeneration started in the garden AFTER Adam sinned. God told Him in the day that he partook of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. It was at that point that man was separated from God spiritually and began to die physically. There was nothing wrong with the design . It was perfect but sin was destructive and man began to deteriorate. In fact the design was so perfect that thousands of years later, our bodies are still more wondrous than we can figure out.

But even still the bodies of the regenerate man to come are even more incredible than the first. What man has only imagined will be a reality and more.

Inan3 said:

No one who believes the scriptures denies that man has degenerated. It is obvious by the firstly the decline of age. Where men once live 900+ years they now mostly live to less than 100 years. The Lord stopped the process by giving them in general at least 70 years. Had He not done this man would be extinct.

This degeneration started in the garden AFTER Adam sinned. God told Him in the day that he partook of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. It was at that point that man was separated from God spiritually and began to die physically. There was nothing wrong with the design . It was perfect but sin was destructive and man began to deteriorate. In fact the design was so perfect that thousands of years later, our bodies are still more wondrous than we can figure out.

But even still the bodies of the regenerate man to come are even more incredible than the first. What man has only imagined will be a reality and more.

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there is no evidence for any of your claims, outside of your interpretation of the Bible, is there?

Inan3 said:

No one who believes the scriptures denies that man has degenerated. It is obvious by the firstly the decline of age. Where men once live 900+ years they now mostly live to less than 100 years. The Lord stopped the process by giving them in general at least 70 years. Had He not done this man would be extinct.

This degeneration started in the garden AFTER Adam sinned. God told Him in the day that he partook of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. It was at that point that man was separated from God spiritually and began to die physically. There was nothing wrong with the design . It was perfect but sin was destructive and man began to deteriorate. In fact the design was so perfect that thousands of years later, our bodies are still more wondrous than we can figure out.

But even still the bodies of the regenerate man to come are even more incredible than the first. What man has only imagined will be a reality and more.

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i have provided evidence to support my claims, I would very much like you to do he same.
No where in the bible does it state that man was made genetically perfect, and genetic degeneration is the price he pays for eating the fruit of knowledge.
Your comments are based on conjecture, not evidence and so must be treated as heresay, not fact I am afraid.
If you could provide one scrap of evidence that man has ever lived for 150+ years I would be amazed - do you not think it more likely that this idea has come about by exageration by man to out-do the other religions?
See my previous post #503 for the real truths of the bible. I await your response to this with relish.

NailsII said:

Like our ability to feed an oxygen-craving brain as opposed to oxygen-craving muscles like our chimp cousins?
That's probably why they are up to 8 times stronger than we are, and we are profoundly more mentally agile than they are.
I'd call it a huge progression.

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It's not progression it's design. Chimps need their strength in their environment and man has been made in the likeness of God to have dominion over the animals. No other animal has or will have the mental capabilities of mankind.

Man was also given the ability to speak as God does to take authority and dominion over his world. No other creature can do that. That is one way we were made in the image of God.

Inan3 said:

No one who believes the scriptures denies that man has degenerated. It is obvious by the firstly the decline of age. Where men once live 900+ years they now mostly live to less than 100 years. The Lord stopped the process by giving them in general at least 70 years. Had He not done this man would be extinct.
.

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I have never understood this argument. If we are still degenerating then why has the average lifespan almost doubled in the last 150 years?

NailsII said:

i have provided evidence to support my claims, I would very much like you to do he same.
No where in the bible does it state that man was made genetically perfect, and genetic degeneration is the price he pays for eating the fruit of knowledge.
Your comments are based on conjecture, not evidence and so must be treated as heresay, not fact I am afraid.
If you could provide one scrap of evidence that man has ever lived for 150+ years I would be amazed - do you not think it more likely that this idea has come about by exageration by man to out-do the other religions?
See my previous post #503 for the real truths of the bible. I await your response to this with relish.

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I prefer mustard

TheOutsider said:

I have never understood this argument. If we are still degenerating then why has the average lifespan almost doubled in the last 150 years?

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Beat me too it - that was my next point.
It is contrary to everything we know about the lives of our ancestors.... in biblical times the average lifespan is estimated to be around 30 years. (source - beginners guide to the bible)

Inan3 said:

It's not progression it's design. Chimps need their strength in their environment and man has been made in the likeness of God to have dominion over the animals. No other animal has or will have the mental capabilities of mankind.

Man was also given the ability to speak as God does to take authority and dominion over his world. No other creature can do that. That is one way we were made in the image of God.

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have you looked at the video link i posted?
I think you need to, it will alter your perception on the concept of design - from the mouth of a christian.

NailsII said:

The quote was an indication of the large amount of genetic difference found in a population of humans - the same would be present in any species.
WE share common genes/allelles, yet have enormous differences. Again, this is predicted by evolutionary theory but not be creation. How much more evidence do you need?

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I do not see that creation does not predict similarities between species. First off, they all live on the very same earth.

Here's another link on why ID is misconceived:

http://tv.royalsoc.ac.uk/dpx_live/dpx.php?dpxuser=dpx_v12

And this shows the levels that bonobos (a elative of chimps) are currently reaching in terms of human-like behaviour.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/76

It is amazing how much bonobos can learn and how much more like humans they can become when compared to other animals - surely this in itself shows that they are our closest (approx. 6m years ago) relatives!!!!

LittleNipper said:

I do not see that creation does not predict similarities between species. First off, they all live on the very same earth.

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It doesn't predict anything, it is not a scientific idea. you can assume anything you want (and most of you do) but it doesn't make it right.
To follow your twisted logic and assume that we are degenerating, then we should not share common degeneration with other species - common extra genes that are useless, common viral genes inserted in the same place in us and chimps....
But that means that we were never perfect in the first place because we share the same defects as chimps.
All mammals share one common defect - we cannot metabolize without oxygen. When we excersise hard we produce lactic acid - it is a metabolic poison to air-breathers; funnily enough it is a strange throwback to our days as anaerobic bacteria in a oxygen-deficient world. Life never found a truly compelling way to get round this problem because we are not designed, we evolved and managed to adapt enough to get us by.

LittleNipper said:

I do not see that creation does not predict similarities between species. First off, they all live on the very same earth.

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How does that predict similarities -- for that matter, how does that explain differences?

LittleNipper said:

I do not see that creation does not predict similarities between species. First off, they all live on the very same earth.

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Creationism allows for similarities but it doesn't predict them. Big difference.