What are the Weaknesses of Evolution?

FoeHammer · Aug 13, 2007

Baggins said:
I was indeed wrong, you have plumped for the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Originally the favorite but odds lengthened after its initial discussion.

You were wrong and you are wrong.
When asked what does being a Christian mean you replied ''Burning witches'' which is itself fallacious.
Show me from the new testament where I, as a Christian, am commanded to burn witches.

Do you think that the people who burned witched considered themselves Christian?

They might have but were they? As a Christian myself I know only too well that there is a tremendous difference between calling myself a Christian and being one.

If so, how do you know that you are a TrueChristian and that they were not.

What do you mean by a ''TrueChristian''?

Perhaps they got it right, after all the bible says you shouldn't suffer a witch to live.

Do you actually bother to read the replies you get? TWO COVENANTS check them out.

You could be the one off to hell for not killing witches as god commanded.

They say ignorance is bliss..... Is it?

FoeHammer.

Split Rock · Aug 13, 2007

FoeHammer said:
Show me from the new testament where I, as a Christian, am commanded to burn witches.

What? You are now claiming that the Old Testament doesn't apply to you? What about all the Fundies who quote Leviticus when they bash gays?

Show us where it says in the new testament that the earth is 6,000 years old, or there was a global Flood.

FoeHammer said:
They might have but were they? As a Christian myself I know only too well that there is a tremendous difference between calling myself a Christian and being one.

Yes they were Christian. That is why they quoted scripture to justify their actions.

FoeHammer said:
What do you mean by a ''TrueChristian''?

Same as you did in the previous comment I quoted.

FoeHammer said:
They say ignorance is bliss..... Is it?

You tell us.

Baggins · Aug 13, 2007

FoeHammer said:
You were wrong and you are wrong.
When asked what does being a Christian mean you replied ''Burning witches'' which is itself fallacious.

That was a joke, apparently TrueChristians have to forgo a sense of humour.

But when it comes to Christians burning witches, you might believe it to be true that they didn't but I should imagine you are the only person on this thread who does.

Show me from the new testament where I, as a Christian, am commanded to burn witches.

Oh, so the bible only consists of the NT now then. I didn't know you TrueChristians had given up completely on the OT.

Good for you it was a bunch of ridiculous rubbish wasn't it. I'm suprised it took you so long to realise all that stuff about the garden of Eden and floods was silly nonsense.

They might have but were they?

I'd say they were, and I think most people and most Christians would as well, a few oddballs like you might not, but I doubt you consider anyone except a handful of people to be Christian.

Let me ask you a question, do you support the death penalty?

As a Christian myself I know only too well that there is a tremendous difference between calling myself a Christian and being one.What do you mean by a ''TrueChristian''?

You seem to be able to tell who is a TueChristian and who is calling themselves a Christian but is deluding themselves.

For ease of reference, people like you are now called TrueChristians, to differentiate you from the people who think they are Christian but obviously aren't ( that's about 99.999% of all the Christians ).

Do you actually bother to read the replies you get? TWO COVENANTS check them out.They say ignorance is bliss..... Is it?

It is when it comes to the bible.

So Jesus was pretty about witches was he? Why didn't the Christians of the middle ages understand that?

Probably didn't have you amazing ability to make the bible say anything you want it to.

FoeHammer.

Baggins

Loudmouth · Aug 13, 2007

mujercristiana said:
Going back a few posts, where several other forum users claimed that I reject ToE because I don't like it. It is poor logic to claim that because I don't like something then it is not true. Let us reverse the order. Because the ToE is not true is why I don't like it. It goes against what the Bible has taught me, and bottom line is the Bible is MY ultimate authority.

How does that work? If a theory contradicts your interpretation of a holy book that theory has to be wrong?

I hate to break it to you, but when a scientist submits a paper for peer review it is not sent to a priest, a rabbit, and a witch doctor. Theories explain evidence, not theology. So, in the light of evidence, what are the weaknesses of the theory of evolution?

MoonLancer · Aug 13, 2007

burning witches is a very Christian thing to do. read my quotes on page 20. they clearly show the OT is just as valid.

people read passages such as these surly thought killing witches was a rightful and Christian action.

"A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death." (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

FoeHammer · Aug 13, 2007

Baggins said:
That was a joke, apparently TrueChristians have to forgo a sense of humour.

Not at all... That wasn't humorous that was inept.

But when it comes to Christians burning witches, you might believe it to be true that they didn't but I should imagine you are the only person on this thread who does.

So what?

Oh, so the bible only consists of the NT now then. I didn't know you TrueChristians had given up completely on the OT.

With every post you make in reply to me you look more and more foolish.....

Good for you it was a bunch of ridiculous rubbish wasn't it. I'm suprised it took you so long to realise all that stuff about the garden of Eden and floods was silly nonsense.

..... and childish.

I'd say they were, and I think most people and most Christians would as well, a few oddballs like you might not, but I doubt you consider anyone except a handful of people to be Christian.

Of course you would say that wouldn't you? As for ''most people'' and ''most ''christians'''' Well I haven't asked most people, as I suspect you haven't, and you have yet to define what you mean by ''christian''

Let me ask you a question, do you support the death penalty?

The death penalty? In principle... yes, in practice... no.

You seem to be able to tell who is a TueChristian and who is calling themselves a Christian but is deluding themselves.

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

For ease of reference, people like you are now called TrueChristians, to differentiate you from the people who think they are Christian but obviously aren't ( that's about 99.999% of all the Christians ).

''Called TrueChristians'' by who?

It is when it comes to the bible.

You are quite willing to admit to blissful ignorance when it comes to The Bible and expect to be taken seriously when you make statements concerning it?..... Not a chance.

So Jesus was pretty about witches was he? Why didn't the Christians of the middle ages understand that?

Probably didn't have you amazing ability to make the bible say anything you want it to.

Baggins

What is a Christian? Be warned you're one post away from my ignore list.

FoeHammer.

DisgruntledPostalEmployee · Aug 13, 2007

FoeHammer said:
With every post you make in reply to me you look more and more foolish.......... and childish.

So you're not going to address the issue he raised with the OT? That's ok, we'll just assume you don't have an answer.

Galle · Aug 13, 2007

FoeHammer said:
So what?

With every post you make in reply to me you look more and more foolish.......... and childish.

Be warned you're one post away from my ignore list.

(etc., etc.)

Isn't it interesting that FoeHammer is wholly unable to address the points raised and instead falls back on hand-waving, insults, and childish threats?

Let me be brief, FoeHammer. You committed the No True Scotsman fallacy. You were informed of this in clear, concise language. Now, at this point, it was only a mistake. Not a big deal; people make mistakes all the time. But most people are honest enough to admit their mistakes. I'll be honest: when you bluster and flail about like this, it makes you look pretty bad. More than that, it makes Christians as a group look bad as well. So please have the integrity to stop this silly behavior.

You don't have to fall to your knees and beg forgiveness, you don't need to write a page-long apology, you don't need to flagellate yourself. You just have to be willing to admit that you made a simple error.

USincognito · Aug 13, 2007

What does witch burning, True ChristianityTM or any of this have to do with the weaknesses of Evolution?

FoeHammer can you please stay on topic?

MoonLancer · Aug 14, 2007

sorry, part of that was my fault I really am fascinated with the Christian witch hunt fanominon.

I think the topic strayed was because we ran out of weakness to evolution.

MarcusHill · Aug 14, 2007

Sorry to perpetuate the thread drift...

FoeHammer:

The person who needs to give a definition of "Christian" is not Baggins, it's you. The reason the burden falls on you is that you are the one claiming the self-proclaimed "Christians" who burned witches were not, in fact, Christians. We're just using "TrueChristian" as a shorthand for "someone who passes FoeHammer's stringent entry criteria for Christianity" until you get round to telling us what it is about those witch-burners that made them non-Christian. (Hint - "they burned witches" isn't an acceptable answer)

FoeHammer · Aug 14, 2007

DisgruntledPostalEmployee said:
So you're not going to address the issue he raised with the OT? That's ok, we'll just assume you don't have an answer.

Atheists to the rescue.

You can assume what you like (atheists usually do). There is no issue with the OT.

FoeHammer.

MoonLancer · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
There is no issue with the OT.

so JESUS himself saying that the OT is still the law of god, and the OT saying its ok to kill the non beliaver... not only that, in fact fact you must, is not a problem with you? um i guess thats really... um... Christian of you.

foe hammer, the witch burnings was a Christians fanomina. It was kept alive by priests and the religious. Were all these people not Christian? I wonder what people 200 years from now will think about Christians today. will they think that Christians that promote war like Iraq, or take rights away from gays will denounced as false Christians and the Christians 200 years from now will proclame themselves true Christians?

For some (although they would never admit it) Christianity is icing on a cake that has been cooking for a very long time. Our ethics and morals have changed subtly every generation for thousands and thousands of years. In this day we don't have slaves, yet in the days of the bible slaves were ok, even the bible said so. it was this ethical shift that did away with slaves, not the church.

the icing is just that, the icing. its just an additive that changes the look of the cake and adds some kick. But really the substance is the cake without the icing.

Every generation Christians adapt the bible to fit the ethical shift that as occurred in their generation. This explains the many diverging branches of Christianity and why their are so many sects. This ethical shift will always be the true teachings of Jesus.

So at the time of witch burnings it was the true Christian thing to do, and hundreds of years later, the things you *might* do today will seem unchristian.

This is the only way religion as survived with the masses. The morals of the bible cannot withstand our moral and ethical scrutiny of today,

The churches that teach the bible without cultural relativity tend to be the worst and despicable. I fear what they do to science and i fear what they will do to my freedoms, and i fear what they would with power.

anyway, thanks for listing.

FoeHammer · Aug 14, 2007

Galle said:
Isn't it interesting that FoeHammer is wholly unable to address the points raised and instead falls back on hand-waving, insults, and childish threats?

No point was made only an accusation and that from ignorance of what a Christian is.

Let me be brief, FoeHammer. You committed the No True Scotsman fallacy.

No I didn't. What is the difference between a scotsman and a true scotsman? If I chose to call myself a scotsman does that make me one even though I have never been to scotland and know little of their culture and their customs?

You were informed of this in clear, concise language. Now, at this point, it was only a mistake. Not a big deal; people make mistakes all the time. But most people are honest enough to admit their mistakes. I'll be honest: when you bluster and flail about like this, it makes you look pretty bad. More than that, it makes Christians as a group look bad as well. So please have the integrity to stop this silly behavior.

As a ''Christian'' yourself can you, from Christ's teaching, justify witch burning? Would, could, a Christian really do such a thing? Or like me do you accept that there are ''wolves in sheeps clothing''? People who may claim to be Christians but ''by their fruit'' it is obvious that they are not.

You don't have to fall to your knees and beg forgiveness, you don't need to write a page-long apology, you don't need to flagellate yourself. You just have to be willing to admit that you made a simple error.

I made no error.

FoeHammer.

FoeHammer · Aug 14, 2007

USincognito said:
What does witch burning, True ChristianityTM or any of this have to do with the weaknesses of Evolution?

FoeHammer can you please stay on topic?

Post #132

USincognito said:
You're making this up.

USincognito said:
Oh, and you might try finding the idea in the establishement clause of the 1st Amendment. Sorta like how the idea of the Trinity is found in a number of verses in the Bible.

USincognito can you please have a word with yourself?

FoeHammer.

USincognito · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
Post #132

USincognito can you please have a word with yourself?

Sure.

US, when you've made 30 more off topic posts to this thread like FoeHammer has, you will need to chastize yourself just as you chastized him for being off topic.

O.K. I'll try not to post 30 more off topic messages like FoeHammer has.

MoonLancer · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
No I didn't. What is the difference between a scotsman and a true scotsman? If I chose to call myself a scotsman does that make me one even though I have never been to scotland and know little of their culture and their customs?
Would, could, a Christian really do such a thing?
I made no error.

Christians have done such things. to you deny the history? don't make me get out my big book of documented witch burnings and start naming cardinals and priests. it will only derail this thread more.

While you have not directly made a no true Scotsman fallacy, this is only by the notion you have not restated what a Christian is by adding true to it. you are still saying that Christians cant burn witches when in fact they have. You are saying they are not Christian because they do not pertain to your view of what a Christian is, when there are a much broader category of Christians. Christians in the middle ages did awful things, but a lot of people did awful things. If these people were not Christians, how come the true Christians did not come out in droves, calling out these wolves so to speak? You seem to have a missing link of Christians consisting of the entire middle ages... who mended the link?
Btw, I know some wolves today that need spoken out against. Are you up to the job Christian?
---
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
---
are you saying this is not what your argument is, that your not redefining what a Christian is because you cannot accept that Christians burnt witches?

DisgruntledPostalEmployee · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
I made no error.

Exodus 22:18 says otherwise.

FishFace · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
No I didn't. What is the difference between a scotsman and a true scotsman? If I chose to call myself a scotsman does that make me one even though I have never been to scotland and know little of their culture and their customs?

A Scotsman is someone who comes from Scotland.
A Christian is someone who tries to follow the teachings of Christ.

Note that committing a sun does not make one a non-christian. Failing to follow Christ also does not stop one being a christian.

As such, you committed the No True Scotsman fallacy when you said that people who burnt witches weren't true Christians, because we have every reason to believe that they thought they were following the teachings of Christ.

If you assert that they were not true Christians, then you yourself cannot know that you're a true Christian, because you could have misinterpreted the Bible, as you claim those who burnt witches did.

There's simply no room for argument here - one does not stop being a Christian because they burn a witch, or commit a crime.

Baggins · Aug 14, 2007

FoeHammer said:
Not at all... That wasn't humorous that was inept.

Made me laugh. We've already ascertained that TrueChristians like yourself have no sense of humour.

So what?With every post you make in reply to me you look more and more foolish.......... and childish.

Ooooh, get her!

Of course you would say that wouldn't you? As for ''most people'' and ''most ''christians'''' Well I haven't asked most people, as I suspect you haven't, and you have yet to define what you mean by ''christian''

What I mean by Christian is someone who claims they are a Christian, neither you nor I know what is in their heart. So I accept at face value the Christianity of someone who calls themselves Christian.

The death penalty? In principle... yes, .

So these witches were executed because they broke the law of the Christians who killed them.

I can't see how you can have a problem with that if you support the death penalty in principle.

With that your whole argument that Christians didn't kill witches because it was an unChristian thing to do collapses into farce.

They were as Christian as you are.

TrueChristians are people who go around claiming to be able to tell whether other people are Christian or not. Bit like yourself with your ability to ascertain that medieval Christians who burned witches (because witchcraft was against the law and carried a death sentence ) were not Christians at all.

You are quite willing to admit to blissful ignorance when it comes to The Bible and expect to be taken seriously when you make statements concerning it?...

If the statements are easily demonstrable, as mine were, then yes, it would be mindless not to.

..

Not a chance.What is a Christian? Be warned you're one post away from my ignore list.

He we go then, fingers crossed I make it.

A Christian is anyone who follows the nicene creed accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour and calls themselves a Christian.

Burning witches is not as important now as it was in the dark ages, or the Age of Religion as it is sometimes called.

What are the Weaknesses of Evolution?

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