What, specifically, are we told in scripture that shows us that the end is near? Revelations is so unclear to me. I am curious about this subject. Thanks so much!
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What are the signs of teh end times?
- Thread starter Mom4Christ
- Start date
- Status
Luke 21:24 - "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
I don't see this happening at the moment , but I "can" see it coming.
http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_dgr.htm
I don't see this happening at the moment , but I "can" see it coming.
http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_dgr.htm
Upvote
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Actully Jesus disappeared up into the clouds suddenly and with no 'signs' preceeding
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(KJV)
Jesus and the apostles spoke often regarding the judgement that would fall on apostate Jerusalem (and the nation as a whole) and how to recognize the events leading up to it. The Second Advent, by that is meant a literal physical return of Jesus Christ in the body is something that will be as sudden and unanounced as the above.
'Revelations' is concerned primarily with its first century audience who was informed by the writer that the events described were in their near future.
Rev 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
(KJV)
One of the most strage sights in eschatological studies is the gymnastics required of those who claim this as literal and attempt to place it thousands of years furture from the writer.
Take care
Hitch
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(KJV)
Jesus and the apostles spoke often regarding the judgement that would fall on apostate Jerusalem (and the nation as a whole) and how to recognize the events leading up to it. The Second Advent, by that is meant a literal physical return of Jesus Christ in the body is something that will be as sudden and unanounced as the above.
'Revelations' is concerned primarily with its first century audience who was informed by the writer that the events described were in their near future.
Rev 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
(KJV)
One of the most strage sights in eschatological studies is the gymnastics required of those who claim this as literal and attempt to place it thousands of years furture from the writer.
Take care
Hitch
Upvote
0
Actually, one of the strangest sights in eschatological studies is the preterist position, which follows a singular line of argumentation (time-text-issue) to the outrageous conclusion that these events somehow took place in the first century without the church even noticing it. None of them noticed that the great tribulation had occurred, none of them realized that the Son returned from heaven to earth, none of them recognized that the Son judged the Man of Sin at the Son's alleged return, and none of them realized that the Son began his covenanted reign out of Zion. Furthermore, the "spiritualized kingdom" allegedly established at this alleged return of the Lord does not match the kingdom described by the Scriptural covenants, in the slightest bit.
Then of course, there is the fact that "consistent preterism" recognizes that a resurrection event accompanied the alleged return of the Lord in the first century. Yep, preterism leads naturally into dangerous heresy.
-Tim
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0
Dad Ernie
Well-Known Member
Greetings Mom4Christ,
There are actually several "signs" that the last days shall be/are upon us:
The first that I look for/see are signs within the church of encroaching darkness:
2 Tim 4:1-5 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
In vs. 4:1 we see the stage of history to which these passages are referring. It is a time yet quite future as it turns out from the time it was written to Timothy. Men/women refuse to listen to God's Word, they gather to those who will "tickle their ears" that is, they don't want to heart the "truth", but will listen to those who create fables and stories, but always refusing to believe the truth.
In Romans 11, et al, there are supporting verses to this departure from the truth:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
During Jesus ministry on this earth, His purpose was to:
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
But as they continued to reject Him and even tried to kill him, He prophesied:
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
I highlight this word "nation" because this is what it means in the Greek:
1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}
probably from 1486; TDNT - 2:364,201; n n
AV - Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2; 164
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or
living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human race
3) a race, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,
Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
And thus we see at the end of Jesus ministry He gave His disciples NEW instructions:
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Here is the Greek word for world:
2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}
probably from the base of 2865; TDNT - 3:868,459; n m
AV - world 186, adorning 1; 187
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
8a) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47
1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
The gospel would no longer be given ONLY to the Jews, but it would spread out to all the nations of the whole whole.
In 70 A.D. we see the "flock" scattered, Jerusalem and the temple totally destroyed. No stone left unturned as according to the Lord's prophecy:
Mat 24:1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Notice the bolded red. Again this is in reference to a time yet very far future from that date, when Christ will appear a second time to receive His saints unto Himself:
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
So as you can see, there is a time set far future from the events of the cross where the gentiles would be sent the Gospel message, and the Kingdom of God filled with them. This continues up to the very end:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
I believe that the "spirit of the last days church" is reflected in these verses:
TO LAODICIA
Rev 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
So there shall be a time of "fulness" for the gentiles, but before the Lord "appears in the air", we shall also have a "fulness" of the Jews who have responded to the Gospel message:
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And the following verses make it clear WHO will be the ones to deliver the Gospel message to those Jews:
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
So now we have TWO signs, one the fulness of gentiles, and the second, the fulness of the Jews.
But even before this there is a sign:
Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The "generation" to see the immediate last days before the 2nd advent of our Lord is when the "fig tree" (ersatz Israel) puts forth leaves. Please note that NO FRUIT is produced in this context. The roots of Israel has been mysteriously retained, even though 2,000 years have tried to decimate them from the face of the earth. They were finally regathered to the land which God had given their fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This occured in 1947. So the "generation" that began in that time frame will be the generation that will see the last days "great tribulation", and the 2nd advent of the Lord.
So that makes 3 signs.
Another sign is given, which ONLY those who diligently seek after God will know about:
2 Thes 2:1-6 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Again notice the "time frame". We shall become aware of "that man of sin" as the Beast gives him power:
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
This makes 4 signs. But we are also given this:
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I seen an ever increasing amount of fear as wars and rumours of wars increase, but we are told to NOT BE TROUBLED.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Starting in A.D. 70, I believe, was the "begining of sorrows"
Matt 24:9-10 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
This is in accord with:
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Matt 24:11-12 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
And as I have already covered, a False Prophet shall arise, and men will no longer listen to sound doctrine.
I believe these are the SIGNS which we are to look for to determine the final days before the Lord's 2nd advent.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
There are actually several "signs" that the last days shall be/are upon us:
The first that I look for/see are signs within the church of encroaching darkness:
2 Tim 4:1-5 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
In vs. 4:1 we see the stage of history to which these passages are referring. It is a time yet quite future as it turns out from the time it was written to Timothy. Men/women refuse to listen to God's Word, they gather to those who will "tickle their ears" that is, they don't want to heart the "truth", but will listen to those who create fables and stories, but always refusing to believe the truth.
In Romans 11, et al, there are supporting verses to this departure from the truth:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
During Jesus ministry on this earth, His purpose was to:
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
But as they continued to reject Him and even tried to kill him, He prophesied:
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
I highlight this word "nation" because this is what it means in the Greek:
1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}
probably from 1486; TDNT - 2:364,201; n n
AV - Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2; 164
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or
living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human race
3) a race, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,
Gentiles
5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians
And thus we see at the end of Jesus ministry He gave His disciples NEW instructions:
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Here is the Greek word for world:
2889 kosmos {kos'-mos}
probably from the base of 2865; TDNT - 3:868,459; n m
AV - world 186, adorning 1; 187
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
8a) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47
1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
The gospel would no longer be given ONLY to the Jews, but it would spread out to all the nations of the whole whole.
In 70 A.D. we see the "flock" scattered, Jerusalem and the temple totally destroyed. No stone left unturned as according to the Lord's prophecy:
Mat 24:1-3 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Notice the bolded red. Again this is in reference to a time yet very far future from that date, when Christ will appear a second time to receive His saints unto Himself:
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
So as you can see, there is a time set far future from the events of the cross where the gentiles would be sent the Gospel message, and the Kingdom of God filled with them. This continues up to the very end:
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
I believe that the "spirit of the last days church" is reflected in these verses:
TO LAODICIA
Rev 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
So there shall be a time of "fulness" for the gentiles, but before the Lord "appears in the air", we shall also have a "fulness" of the Jews who have responded to the Gospel message:
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And the following verses make it clear WHO will be the ones to deliver the Gospel message to those Jews:
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
So now we have TWO signs, one the fulness of gentiles, and the second, the fulness of the Jews.
But even before this there is a sign:
Mat 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The "generation" to see the immediate last days before the 2nd advent of our Lord is when the "fig tree" (ersatz Israel) puts forth leaves. Please note that NO FRUIT is produced in this context. The roots of Israel has been mysteriously retained, even though 2,000 years have tried to decimate them from the face of the earth. They were finally regathered to the land which God had given their fathers - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This occured in 1947. So the "generation" that began in that time frame will be the generation that will see the last days "great tribulation", and the 2nd advent of the Lord.
So that makes 3 signs.
Another sign is given, which ONLY those who diligently seek after God will know about:
2 Thes 2:1-6 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Again notice the "time frame". We shall become aware of "that man of sin" as the Beast gives him power:
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
This makes 4 signs. But we are also given this:
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
I seen an ever increasing amount of fear as wars and rumours of wars increase, but we are told to NOT BE TROUBLED.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Starting in A.D. 70, I believe, was the "begining of sorrows"
Matt 24:9-10 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
This is in accord with:
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Matt 24:11-12 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
And as I have already covered, a False Prophet shall arise, and men will no longer listen to sound doctrine.
I believe these are the SIGNS which we are to look for to determine the final days before the Lord's 2nd advent.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
Upvote
0
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Actually, one of the strangest sights in eschatological studies is the preterist position, which follows a singular line of argumentation (time-text-issue) to the outrageous conclusion that these events somehow took place in the first century without the church even noticing it. None of them noticed that the great tribulation had occurred, none of them realized that the Son returned from heaven to earth, none of them recognized that the Son judged the Man of Sin at the Son's alleged return, and none of them realized that the Son began his covenanted reign out of Zion. Furthermore, the "spiritualized kingdom" allegedly established at this alleged return of the Lord does not match the kingdom described by the Scriptural covenants, in the slightest bit.
Then of course, there is the fact that "consistent preterism" recognizes that a resurrection event accompanied the alleged return of the Lord in the first century. Yep, preterism leads naturally into dangerous heresy.
-Tim
Tim your implications are false and you are aware . This is grossly dishonest on your part, and disgustingly familiar, as you have made similar posts before
Since you obvioulsy moldeled this drivel after my post I demand you produce something from any post I have made anywhere on the net that can be used to support your implication that I hold to such as:
the Son returned from heaven to earth
Hurry up Tim.
BTW your sly manner is noted, in the sniveling disclaimer you posted, but your intent and content are inexcusable nonetheless. I have no doubt the moderating staff is is more than able to see through your childish antics.
Hitch
***************
Actually, one of the strangest sights in eschatological studies is the preterist position, which follows a singular line of argumentation (time-text-issue) to the outrageous conclusion that these events somehow took place in the first century without the church even noticing it. None of them noticed that the great tribulation had occurred, none of them realized that the Son returned from heaven to earth, none of them recognized that the Son judged the Man of Sin at the Son's alleged return, and none of them realized that the Son began his covenanted reign out of Zion. Furthermore, the "spiritualized kingdom" allegedly established at this alleged return of the Lord does not match the kingdom described by the Scriptural covenants, in the slightest bit.
Then of course, there is the fact that "consistent preterism" recognizes that a resurrection event accompanied the alleged return of the Lord in the first century. Yep, preterism leads naturally into dangerous heresy.
-Tim
Tim your implications are false and you are aware . This is grossly dishonest on your part, and disgustingly familiar, as you have made similar posts before
Since you obvioulsy moldeled this drivel after my post I demand you produce something from any post I have made anywhere on the net that can be used to support your implication that I hold to such as:
the Son returned from heaven to earth
Hurry up Tim.
BTW your sly manner is noted, in the sniveling disclaimer you posted, but your intent and content are inexcusable nonetheless. I have no doubt the moderating staff is is more than able to see through your childish antics.
Hitch
Upvote
0
Do you reject preterism, Hitch? A simple yes or no will do.
If the answer is no, are you going to provide the Scriptural reason why the "coming of the Lord" promised in the first century (via the time-texts) was fulfilled in the first century even though no Christians realized it had happened?
-Tim
If the answer is no, are you going to provide the Scriptural reason why the "coming of the Lord" promised in the first century (via the time-texts) was fulfilled in the first century even though no Christians realized it had happened?
-Tim
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0
vinsight4u
Contributor
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I love to point to this verse when someone asks this question.
2 peter 3:3&4 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. Just look at these forums, you see prophecy fulfillments all over the place. There are many verses to look at reguarding the last days. We are in the last days right now, that Is what I believe anyways. God Bless.
2 peter 3:3&4 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. Just look at these forums, you see prophecy fulfillments all over the place. There are many verses to look at reguarding the last days. We are in the last days right now, that Is what I believe anyways. God Bless.
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vinsight4u
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Could you enlighten us?Josh1 said:
Show us a few of these last days prophesy fulfillments that you claim are happining right now, "all over the place".
Please remember to cite chapter and verse of the "last days" prophesy and what specific current event or events you know to be their fulfillments.
Thanx.
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Hya Dad Ernie.Dad Ernie said:
You went into great detail about the definition of the greek word "kosmos", translated as "world" in Mark 16, but for some reason didn't indicate if the same word is used for "world" in the following verses you cited, Matt 24:3 & 24:14.
Would you be so kind to elaborate for our readers on the greek word or words translated for "world" in those texts and their meaning, if they are indeed different words than "kosmos"?
Your glossing over them seemed to imply that the same greek word "kosmos" is used in those verses, and therefore the same definition of world in Mark 16:15 ishould be applied to the word "world" in Matt 24:3 & 24:14
Is this correct?
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Val Valerie,vinsight4u said:
Please slow down and take a reality check.
THE ISRAELI ARMY cannot be challenged by thugs in Iraq.
There is NO ARMY IN IRAQ.. hope this does not dissapoint you but prophecy
always goes with current reality.
Nebuchadnezzar ruled over a powerful kingdom hence He had the power of a beast'
The old Assyrians were also powerful, same as Medo Persia
Do not get ahead of yourself here and wish for some wicked guy from the east to materialise
THERE IS NO ARMY in Iraq.... a rag tag bunch at best
No arab/muslim nation can do a thing to Israel since their armies are USELESS TODAY.
UNLESS OF COURSE USA ATTACKS Israel... now that is something else.
We cannot force prophecy to come to pass... it will pass via prevailing conditions.
There is NO ARMY IN IRAQ... please listen to the news.
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So as you can see, there is a time set far future from the events of the cross where the gentiles would be sent the Gospel message, and the Kingdom of God filled with them. This continues up to the very end:
As far as Rome?
Rom 10:17-18
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
(NKJ)
Col 1:5-6
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
(NKJ)
Titus 2:10-12
10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
(NKJ)
Hitch
As far as Rome?
Rom 10:17-18
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
(NKJ)
Col 1:5-6
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
(NKJ)
Titus 2:10-12
10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
(NKJ)
Hitch
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vinsight4u
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Dad Ernie
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Greetings Parousia,
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
In Matt. 24:14 the Gr. word for world is:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
I intended not to deceive, nor go into any great depth on any of the areas I touched on, which I certainly could have. The post became very long as it was. I pray it was edifying.
As you can see though, the general meaning is the same. The Gospel was to go into ALL the world.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
Quote:
You went into great detail about the definition of the greek word "kosmos", translated as "world" in Mark 16, but for some reason didn't indicate if the same word is used for "world" in the following verses you cited, Matt 24:3 & 24:14.
Would you be so kind to elaborate for our readers on the greek word or words translated for "world" in those texts and their meaning, if they are indeed different words than "kosmos"?
Your glossing over them seemed to imply that the same greek word "kosmos" is used in those verses, and therefore the same definition of world in Mark 16:15 ishould be applied to the word "world" in Matt 24:3 & 24:14
In Matt. 24:3 the Gr. word for world is:You went into great detail about the definition of the greek word "kosmos", translated as "world" in Mark 16, but for some reason didn't indicate if the same word is used for "world" in the following verses you cited, Matt 24:3 & 24:14.
Would you be so kind to elaborate for our readers on the greek word or words translated for "world" in those texts and their meaning, if they are indeed different words than "kosmos"?
Your glossing over them seemed to imply that the same greek word "kosmos" is used in those verses, and therefore the same definition of world in Mark 16:15 ishould be applied to the word "world" in Matt 24:3 & 24:14
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
In Matt. 24:14 the Gr. word for world is:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
I intended not to deceive, nor go into any great depth on any of the areas I touched on, which I certainly could have. The post became very long as it was. I pray it was edifying.
As you can see though, the general meaning is the same. The Gospel was to go into ALL the world.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Wrong. I am telling the truth, as I do in all my posts.
If the Lord returned in 70 A.D., than there was a resurrection of the righteous to partake in the kingdom which was allegedly established in 70 A.D. Since partial preterists (or "inconsistent preterists") would like to remain "orthodox," than they must reject the idea that any resurrection took place in 70 A.D.
Awwwww, the partialists don't like it when you point out that their "first coming" is not really a coming of the Lord as taught in the Scripture.
There was not a single Christian in the first few centuries of church history who thought that the Lord had returned. When will you admit that your view is seriously unlikely, Hitch? Gee... the early Christians didn't realize that the great tribulation had occurred, that the Antichrist had been revealed, or that the Lord had returned from heaven and destroyed this Man of Sin and had established the kingdom. You don't expect me to ever buy in to that wierd idea, do you Hitch?
Hurry up and what? You are the one who needs to prove that the Lord returned in the first century.
My "sly manner"? The "disclaimer" I posted? lol! If you wanna run off an cry to moderators, Hitch, than go right ahead and do that.
Why did you start bashing futurism on this thread, Hitch? As far as I can tell, the thread has nothing to do with particular views but just merely asks for "signs" that precede the Lord's return. But for some reason you started promoting preterist nonsense and attacking futurism. Well, in that case I think it is only appropriate that a futurist point out the absurd nature of your theology, Hitch.
-Tim
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Hi Vunderbar,
How are you doing? Is things going well near the great lakes?
You wrote:
There was not a single Christian in the first few centuries of church history who thought that the Lord had returned.
*************************
Could be, I don't know, but there was a considerable group who heard Jesus and Jesus' close friends say He would.
John 21
But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
So Peter knew.
Matthew 10
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
So first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot,.....knew!
Rev 1
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
So John knew.
Matthew 24
34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
So Matthew, Mark and Luke knew.
1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
So Paul knew.
What started this process all off in the Olivet discourse was the abomination standing in the Holy place which was the signal for the friends of Jesus to flee Judea. If they fled they wouldn't have seen the great tribulation, if they stayed they were killed and couldn't report much, if they were taking captive they could have reported on it ...guess what one did! Read about it here;
http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/
I want readers to notice something here. When you confront people like Vunderbar with one or two verses they 'refute' using common phrases like 'out of context', 'you have to know this, this or that first', or they simply go into some long song and dance to rationalize or explain the verse away. Another ploy is to bring up some obscure verse from the OT, lay out some wild interpretation and then proclaim that the NT verse doesn't agree with that. What that ploy actually does is illustrate that the bible is WRONG and that brings up the question...if you are implying the bible doesn't agree within itself, what are you wasting your time reading it for?
If there is a response to a list of multiple verses it really looks silly when you read it and realize they are making excuses for each and every sylable from the word of God. If Vunderbar deals with these in some fashion I have about 100 more committed to memory that fit word for word as written and we can just carry on.
Thanks
Justme
How are you doing? Is things going well near the great lakes?
You wrote:
There was not a single Christian in the first few centuries of church history who thought that the Lord had returned.
*************************
Could be, I don't know, but there was a considerable group who heard Jesus and Jesus' close friends say He would.
John 21
But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
So Peter knew.
Matthew 10
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
So first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot,.....knew!
Rev 1
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
So John knew.
Matthew 24
34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
So Matthew, Mark and Luke knew.
1 Thess 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL ALIVE, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
So Paul knew.
What started this process all off in the Olivet discourse was the abomination standing in the Holy place which was the signal for the friends of Jesus to flee Judea. If they fled they wouldn't have seen the great tribulation, if they stayed they were killed and couldn't report much, if they were taking captive they could have reported on it ...guess what one did! Read about it here;
http://wesley.nnu.edu/josephus/
I want readers to notice something here. When you confront people like Vunderbar with one or two verses they 'refute' using common phrases like 'out of context', 'you have to know this, this or that first', or they simply go into some long song and dance to rationalize or explain the verse away. Another ploy is to bring up some obscure verse from the OT, lay out some wild interpretation and then proclaim that the NT verse doesn't agree with that. What that ploy actually does is illustrate that the bible is WRONG and that brings up the question...if you are implying the bible doesn't agree within itself, what are you wasting your time reading it for?
If there is a response to a list of multiple verses it really looks silly when you read it and realize they are making excuses for each and every sylable from the word of God. If Vunderbar deals with these in some fashion I have about 100 more committed to memory that fit word for word as written and we can just carry on.
Thanks
Justme
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