What Are The Sabbaths In Colossians 2:16, 17 Shadows Of?

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

So it is the covenant relationship you have a different understanding on. The law is the foundation. the covenant is the negotiated part where the blood shedding is. As in the first covenant, the lamb shedding blood as a sacrifice for sin, pointed forward. So does the new covenant, with the Lamb of God shedding his blood for sin, point forever. Now we have a high priest after order of Melchesdec rather than Levi in the old. We are the temple rather than a building, ... Yep I am there.

Joe67 · Mar 9, 2010

Rev 12:10-12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. KJV

God was, and is and shall forever be. Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today and forever.

The Scripture in Rev 12:10,11,12 is true in a three-fold manifestation. It is true from the beginning before he was revealed in the likeness of man, and as manifested in the human life of Jesus and as made manifest in his resurrected life and work as high priest over his body that was chosen for him by the Father from the beginning.

The sabbath rest in Christ Jesus is three-fold. Now it is by the power of an endless life without mornings and evenings through the power of the resurrection.

Joe

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

Regarding the temple of worship.. the House of Prayer..

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Shabbat from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; 56:7 Even them will I bring to My set apart mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
So it is the covenant relationship you have a different understanding on. The law is the foundation. the covenant is the negotiated part where the blood shedding is. As in the first covenant, the lamb shedding blood as a sacrifice for sin, pointed forward. So does the new covenant, with the Lamb of God shedding his blood for sin, point forever. Now we have a high priest after order of Melchesdec rather than Levi in the old. We are the temple rather than a building, ... Yep I am there.

I think I understand where you're coming from.

I provided Scripture, and showed how I am in submission to it.
You redefined the covenant that was dictated at Sinai to suit a personal belief system, and don't need to determine if Scripture supports your view.

That is the basis of a "different understanding". It is the basis of a "different gospel, which is not another" (Galatians 1:6-7).

You admitted that God has replaced the priesthood, and you no longer have access to the Levitical priesthood that is required to make the burnt offerings mandated under the law to keep the sabbath day holy (see Numbers 28:9-10). It isn't difficult to see that the sabbath shadow is impossible to comply with now, and even Hebrews 10 shows how it drew to a close:

7 ¶ Then I said, `Behold, I have come----In the volume of the book it is written of Me----To do Your will, O God.'"
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The "He" in this presentation is Jesus Christ. The first and second describes the change of the covenants from one to another that cannot coexist. Moses defined exactly what the covenant dictated at Sinai was in Deuteronomy 4:10-14, and he didn't leave you wriggle room to redefine it. He even documents it in the next chapter of Deuteronomy to remove any question that might have remained.

Your posts assert a conclusion that sounds very nice, but the conclusions you offer are utterly rediculous when exposed to Scripture.

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
Regarding the temple of worship.. the House of Prayer..

Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Shabbat from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; 56:7 Even them will I bring to My set apart mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Keep the sabbath?
Make burnt offerings?
Take a hold of His covenant?

Just exactly what covenant do you think is being described here?
It isn't the new covenant provided in the Blood of the Messiah.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
I look forward to the day when the shadow will be a reality for us all. May you be as blessed to enter into His Rest as I am.

Today is that day, if I hear His voice and do not harden my heart. For if Joshua had given rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. The person who enters that rest has rested from his works, as God did from His.

For the law, since it is only a shadow the good things to come and does not have the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

BFA

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

VictorC said:
I think I understand where you're coming from.

I provided Scripture, and showed how I am in submission to it.
You redefined the covenant that was dictated at Sinai to suit a personal belief system, and don't need to determine if Scripture supports your view.

That is the basis of a "different understanding". It is the basis of a "different gospel, which is not another" (Galatians 1:6-7).

You admitted that God has replaced the priesthood, and you no longer have access to the Levitical priesthood that is required to make the burnt offerings mandated under the law to keep the sabbath day holy (see Numbers 28:9-10). It isn't difficult to see that the sabbath shadow is impossible to comply with now, and even Hebrews 10 shows how it drew to a close:

7 ¶ Then I said, `Behold, I have come----In the volume of the book it is written of Me----To do Your will, O God.'"
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The "He" in this presentation is Jesus Christ. The first and second describes the change of the covenants from one to another that cannot coexist. Moses defined exactly what the covenant dictated at Sinai was in Deuteronomy 4:10-14, and he didn't leave you wriggle room to redefine it. He even documents it in the next chapter of Deuteronomy to remove any question that might have remained.

Your posts assert a conclusion that sounds very nice, but the conclusions you offer are utterly rediculous when exposed to Scripture.

I have no problem with the first and second covenants... I have no problem with being in the second because it is in Yeshua. Yeshua is Lord of the Shabbat, who is the master of the second covenant... so where we differ is on the shabbat and "the shadows of things to come". I do not have a problem in not only believe in the "to come" part, but actually look forward to this.

Since we are not to judge each other on how to do them, you should see no problem in me keeping them for what they are... a rehearsal of things to come,.. or a memorial ... just as God said they are...

I love Yeshua and am honored to one of His. I keep His appointed times because to me they are the dates He set aside, He sanctifies with His Presence,... and in them I receive His blessings... Just my experience...

Scripture has not wounded or wrestled my heart regarding this matter. The Holy Spirit in its leading me through scripture has opened up more window and doors of more verses that are in harmony, and what joy I receive in the reading and study of His Word. I feel blessed, and am continued to be inspired, moving forward in faith.

I have been sharing my faith with you... As you have been sharing yours with me. May the Lord bless you with a closer walk with Him. May you be brought into His Presence... and may scripture open up to you like never before. .. May you walk humbly before Him and rejoice in His Wisdom which is not of this world. God bless.

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
I have no problem with the first and second covenants... I have no problem with being in the second because it is in Yeshua. Yeshua is Lord of the Shabbat, who is the master of the second covenant... so where we differ is on the shabbat and "the shadows of things to come". I do not have a problem in not only believe in the "to come" part, but actually look forward to this.

So far you haven't identified what Scripture defines as the first covenant, and have instead replaced Scripture's definition with one of your own making. In addition, you don't acknowledge Jesus being the Lord of the sabbath in actual practice, as that term conveys His ownership of the sabbath, and His natural right to dispose of the shadow when the reality that it was designed to lead you to came to fruition. This is fully supported in the narratives describing the Gospel.

visionary said:
Since we are not to judge each other on how to do them, you should see no problem in me keeping them for what they are... a rehearsal of things to come,.. or a memorial ... just as God said they are...

This translates to an admission that the reality hasn't arrived yet, and there is no new covenant provided in the Blood of Jesus. Also, my complaint concerning your posts is that you're content to pass judgment on Scripture's testimony.

visionary said:
I love Yeshua and am honored to one of His. I keep His appointed times because to me they are the dates He set aside, He sanctifies with His Presence,... and in them I receive His blessings... Just my experience...

This isn't possible to reconcile with Scripture's testimony explaining the end of the weekly shadow of the sabbath.

visionary said:
Scripture has not wounded or wrestled my heart regarding this matter. The Holy Spirit in its leading me through scripture has opened up more window and doors of more verses that are in harmony, and what joy I receive in the reading and study of His Word. I feel blessed, and am continued to be inspired, moving forward in faith.

I have been sharing my faith with you... As you have been sharing yours with me. May the Lord bless you with a closer walk with Him. May you be brought into His Presence... and may scripture open up to you like never before. .. May you walk humbly before Him and rejoice in His Wisdom which is not of this world. God bless.

You have been sharing an unBiblical faith that cannot be found in Scripture. Your unwillingness to support your belief system in your posts isn't conducive to a discussion that one would hope would further a goal I hold precious - the unity of the faith that was entrusted to us. That faith is presented in the singular.

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head----Christ----
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Variance from a singular unity is regarded by this author as the "wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting". It is sinful human pride and deceit that has produced denominationalist thought, artificial divisions in the Body of Christ that is an affront to His commandment for us to love one another and edify each other in the singular faith.

Perhaps you didn't know that I came from a background in Messianic Judaism. The terms you use are familiar to me for that reason, as are the concepts. They are wholly unBiblical, the reason you cannot defend them.

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
Today is that day, if I hear His voice and do not harden my heart. For if Joshua had given rest, he would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. The person who enters that rest has rested from his works, as God did from His.

For the law, since it is only a shadow the good things to come and does not have the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

BFA

By "today", our permanent rest is a fait accompli when this was written. The wait for God's promised "My rest" is over.

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

VictorC said:
So far you haven't identified what Scripture defines as the first covenant, and have instead replaced Scripture's definition with one of your own making. In addition, you don't acknowledge Jesus being the Lord of the sabbath in actual practice, as that term conveys His ownership of the sabbath, and His natural right to dispose of the shadow when the reality that it was designed to lead you to came to fruition. This is fully supported in the narratives describing the Gospel.

This translates to an admission that the reality hasn't arrived yet, and there is no new covenant provided in the Blood of Jesus. Also, my complaint concerning your posts is that you're content to pass judgment on Scripture's testimony.

This isn't possible to reconcile with Scripture's testimony explaining the end of the weekly shadow of the sabbath.

You have been sharing an unBiblical faith that cannot be found in Scripture. Your unwillingness to support your belief system in your posts isn't conducive to a discussion that one would hope would further a goal I hold precious - the unity of the faith that was entrusted to us. That faith is presented in the singular.

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head----Christ----
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Variance from a singular unity is regarded by this author as the "wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting". It is sinful human pride and deceit that has produced denominationalist thought, artificial divisions in the Body of Christ that is an affront to His commandment for us to love one another and edify each other in the singular faith.

Perhaps you didn't know that I came from a background in Messianic Judaism. The terms you use are familiar to me for that reason, as are the concepts. They are wholly unBiblical, the reason you cannot defend them.

His ownership of the Shabbat, he will along with the rest of the Kingdom will be returned restored to His Father.

The Lord will defend that which is His. I will wait upon Him. He will be victorious and we will rejoice together at His Wedding Supper. I will see you there.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 9, 2010

VictorC said:
The wait for God's promised "My rest" is over.

I agree completely.

BFA

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

Psalm 95

1O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

2Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.

3For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

4In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.

5The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.

6O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

7For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

10Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

11Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
His ownership of the Shabbat, he will along with the rest of the Kingdom will be returned restored to His Father.

Please provide Scriptural support for this.

visionary said:
The Lord will defend that which is His. I will wait upon Him. He will be victorious and we will rejoice together at His Wedding Supper. I will see you there.

Please show me why God is going to terminate His permanent rest and force us to return to the temporal sabbath shadow He saw fit to redeem us from.

visionary · Mar 9, 2010

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

God is not going to terminate His Permanent rest

VictorC · Mar 9, 2010

visionary said:
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

As you can see, this passage doesn't support a claim that the sabbath will be reinstated. Your prior claim that the sabbath will be "restored" doesn't have any Biblical support.

visionary said:
God is not going to terminate His Permanent rest

I agree with this statement.
And as Hebrews 4:10 states:
For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
God is never going to end His rest, we are never going to leave His rest, and we are never going to return to the sabbath.

visionary · Mar 10, 2010

VictorC said:
As you can see, this passage doesn't support a claim that the sabbath will be reinstated. Your prior claim that the sabbath will be "restored" doesn't have any Biblical support.

I agree with this statement.
And as Hebrews 4:10 states:
For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
God is never going to end His rest, we are never going to leave His rest, and we are never going to return to the sabbath.

Restore as in bring it back to its proper place within the Hearts of His People..

Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Prophecies of God that still need to be fulfilled... ALL FLESH have yet to come and worship before Him from one sabbath to another or one new moon to another... but the day is coming... We will see you there... we will be singing the same song.. once we find the harmony...

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Byfaithalone1 · Mar 10, 2010

visionary said:
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

What time period is being referenced in this verse? Does the context provide any clue regarding the time period?

BFA

Joe67 · Mar 10, 2010

visionary said:
..

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

visionary,

This is some wonderful singing.

Is it two songs or one song?

There is another place in the book of Revelation where these two singings are witnessed.

Joe

visionary · Mar 10, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
What time period is being referenced in this verse? Does the context provide any clue regarding the time period?

BFA

The thing about prophecies is

if they have not yet occurred then they are yet to pass...that means we get to look forward to it in the future...

As to references or clues regarding time period... how about

18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

and

2For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

which I tie in with...

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

VictorC · Mar 10, 2010

visionary said:
Restore as in bring it back to its proper place within the Hearts of His People..

Your reasoning has become circular, returning to the same place you started at. When I asked you this question:
Please show me why God is going to terminate His permanent rest and force us to return to the temporal sabbath shadow He saw fit to redeem us from.
Your response was a concession that God wasn't going to terminate His rest nor drive us away from it.

Now, you're asserting that the sabbath that God delivered us from is going to be reinstated. Yet there is no Biblical evidence you have to offer. It remains an idea in departure from Scripture.

visionary said:
Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Prophecies of God that still need to be fulfilled... ALL FLESH have yet to come and worship before Him from one sabbath to another or one new moon to another... but the day is coming... We will see you there... we will be singing the same song.. once we find the harmony...

This passage was offered before, and I mentioned that it marks the passage of time in the weekly and monthly periods. It uses familiar language, but you haven't found anything to support reinstating either of these ordinances of law, both of which require burnt offerings. Look at other details in this passage:

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Remember that it is the former law that charges transgressions - these burning corpses are those who have not been delivered from the law: the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression (Romans 4:15). This is consistent with Galatians 4:30 explaining that those remaining under Sinai will not share in the inheritance we have been adopted into. You never responded to that passage, nor the commandment contained therein.

visionary said:
Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

We hope that you will join us in singing our praises to God our Redeemer

What Are The Sabbaths In Colossians 2:16, 17 Shadows Of?

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Newbie

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Jesus - that's my final answer

Jesus - that's my final answer

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Jesus - that's my final answer

Jesus - that's my final answer

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Jesus - that's my final answer

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Jesus - that's my final answer

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

The gospel is Jesus Christ!

Newbie

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Jesus - that's my final answer

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