What are the qualities and doctrines of a MATURE Believer?

Breckmin · Oct 4, 2009

I normally don't point to fellow men...because I believe our eyes should
always be on Jesus - the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But in this case, I'm encouraging a discussion on what makes a believer
a mature Christian. What are the qualities of a mature Christian? And
this is going to lead to "what does a mature Christian believe?"

There are three individuals in North America I am going to use for this
discussion. They all three have PhD's. and are well-known radio personalities
for those who listen to Christian radio in the United States.

1. Charles Stanley
2. John MacArthur
3. R.C. Sproul

The reason I am using these guys as an example of what I believe
is inclusive of a mature believer is because Christian maturity encompasses
THEOLOGY!

All three of these men of God would NOT want to be pointed to..but
would rather have the focus be on Christ. A mature Christian does
NOT want to be exalted.... they recognize that everything they are
is by the grace of God and the grace of God alone. Every mature
believer wants to glorify Christ and not themselves.

A mature Christian does NOT add to the Holy Cross of Jesus with
their own works. A mature believer understands that salvation is
by Grace through faith not of works - but only the work of Christ
and His atoning death.

With these men who speak regularly on the radio you have
a great professor and intellectual (R.C. Sproul), a great teacher
and biblical expositor (John MacArthur) and a great and powerful
preacher (Charles Stanley). What I am interested in alluding to
here, however, is humility. All three of these men are extremely
humble. They all have a DEEP love for Christ. They all three
agree that salvation is God's work in the hearts of men and that
prayer is an important part of changing the believer through
fellowship and worship of the Creator.

It is often said that a mature believer does NOT live in the past
(look back and worry about the past or wish they could have
changed something) but only learns from it....that a mature
believer does NOT live in the future (for no one knows the
future and you could die at any minute from various causes)
but only plans wisely for future events "if the Lord wills."

It is that a mature believer only lives in the present and acknowledges
that his very steps are ordained by God.... and the good works that
he does God has prepared for Him to do by His grace. It is important
to spend time in prayer - daily - with the Lord. All mature believers
do this.

THEOLOGY:

All three of these men would rightfully deny baptismal regeneration.

They would all deny that you could somehow "lose" your salvation
since they know that eternal salvation is incorruptible.

They would all three agree that it is the power of the Holy Spirit
in the life of the believer that comes through the meditation of
the things of God (Word of God) that builds faith and builds
Christian character that makes a believer more Christ-like.

They all three believe in the unique Deity of Christ and the
bodily Resurrection as well as a Trinitarian view of God. The
belief in the virgin birth is also an important part of being a
mature believer.

Eschatology is clearly peripheral theology...and I actually
believe that all three of these mature believers are clearly
WRONG on the inductive "pre-tribulational rapture" position
which is easily corrected by a Christian deductionist...so
you can be a mature believer and still be wrong on the rapture.
EDIT: THIS IS WRONG. R.C. Sproul does NOT subscribe
to the pre-tribulational rapture position. Stanley and
MacArthur do.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss "what makes a believer
a mature believer?" What do we need to learn in order to be
a mature believer?

Clearly there are immature theologies. The belief that you can
somehow "lose" your salvation is clearly one of them...because
it totally denies the Faithfulness of God in the life of the believer
and adds to the Holy Cross of Jesus with the believer's "keeping"
of his own salvation.

What about theistic evolution? Can you truly be a mature believer
and believe in universal common descent theory? Can you deny
original sin and still be a mature believer? I would say NO.

I would also say that the knowledge of a place of eternal separation
from God's glory and logical punishment (hell) is also an important
part of being a mature believer?

What are some essential beliefs of a mature believer?

If you say "biblical inerrancy" - keep in mind that this is a relatively
new belief structure and not a historical view or seen as a necessity
until the last hundred years or so....but a literal interpretation and
historical interpretation of the Torah/Tanach when possible IS a
historical position.

Can you be a mature believer and NOT believe in a worldwide flood?

Do you have to believe in Noah and the building of the ark?

What do you think?

stelow · Oct 4, 2009

Markus6 · Oct 4, 2009

Whilst I don't want to completely dismiss your OP I think this is dangerous ground. A logical reason for calling those you disagree with immature is not going to be helpful to anyone. You have also chosen three men who come from the same very narrow portion of Christianity, that their theology is comparable is not really a surprise. As I'm sure you do not know these three personally it seems they only way you can judge their maturity is on their doctrine (unless you are counting their popularity and the size of their ministries). As you are a single person you have clearly evaluated their doctrines in comparison to your own (e.g. you can say eschatology is a peripheral theology and not "these three mature Christians disagree with me on eschatology therefore I must be wrong"). You have then deduced the doctrines of a mature believer from that. It appears unfortunately circular to me.

I think we'd be better learning to discuss doctrines with love (love being, I hope, the undisputed number one mark of Christian maturity), whilst prayerfully studying the scriptures and submitting to Christ. Labelling doctrines we disagree with immature seems counter-productive in our quest for the truth and the unity that is found in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

Breckmin · Oct 4, 2009

stelow said:
The mature Christian should focus on loving Jesus first and then on their love for each other, finding common ground and being an encouragement to each other.

Can you love someone and still call them out on error???

The fact is, we are all in a growth process. God and God alone is
"growing us" - perfecting us through teaching us consequences.

A mature believer knows that "we are all just clay."

The reason I opened up this topic was not so much to talk about
"once saved always saved" being a mature understanding of salvation
or noting that baptismal regeneration is an immature theology that
believers often grow out of...

I actually wanted to talk about "character" which I hoped the discussion
would eventually also get to by talking about theology. Theology is very
important to how we handle "sin" and this is one of the things I was
hoping to address.

Will a mature believer curse? Does a mature believer say the s-word
or the f-word? or is this strickly based on their circumstances?

Will a mature believer drink and occasionally drink to much? Can
you be a mature believer and get drunk say "once a year" or once
every two years?

Will a mature believer ever look at pornography? Most women would
probably say NO. If a man of God is looking at pornography once or
twice a year, then they would say such a person is NOT a mature
believer.

Here is the point. I like science, so often I have a tendency to want
to quantify things if possible. I see qualities in mature believers which
are rare. Often people believe they are mature believers but the fact
is they are occasionally swearing (cursing, cussing) or they are drinking
occasionally TOO MUCH (getting drunk) - even if it is once a year (not
being of sober mind) - or they are occasionally looking at pornography
(usually soft core) a couple times a year but claiming to be a mature
believer.

Perhaps I am just thinking out loud in this thread, but these three
examples of sin are products of pride as are many other sins. Cursing
could be a product of discontentment - a lack of faith - but also
related to pride.

I have observed so many Christians come out of various denominations
that teach error. Sometimes they mature out of "cults" like Jehovah's
Witnesses...or false doctrines like Mormonism. Sometimes they mature
out of universalism or other false doctrines regarding hell. The point
is that we are all individuals and God is molding us. We are maturing
and putting aside doctrines which clearly lack an understanding of the
faithfulness of God and particularly the grace of God.

Not adding to the Cross with our own works or with baptism is something
that needs to be brought to the attention of those who do this. But
it is all related to Christian maturity and love. Faith is trusting in God
and not trusting in yourself or your own works.

We only choose what is right because of God's grace and God is teaching
us and molding us and chastising us so that we make better decisions.

Breckmin · Oct 4, 2009

stelow said:
I do believe in the Sovereignty of God to preserve those who remain in Him; at the same time I do believe that God gave man a free will to choose.

We choose God because God first (imperfect in the English) infinitely
decreed us to be adopted as His Children. God knows every born-again
believer who will worship Him forever in eternity. Our names are symbolically
written in a book sealed up before the foundation of the world.

To not understand this...is to not have a mature understanding of God's
grace. It is by God's grace and God's grace alone that any of us receives
salvation. The only reason we would ever choose God is because God
gave us the faith to do so.

Breckmin · Oct 4, 2009

Markus6 said:
Whilst I don't want to completely dismiss your OP I think this is dangerous ground.

Maturity does not need to be proclaimed....because Christian maturity
brings forth humility and the understanding that if you have learned about
God's faithfulness and God's grace - then it is by God's grace alone and
no one can boast of it.

Markus6 said:
A logical reason for calling those you disagree with immature is not going to be helpful to anyone.

What we are doing is hypothetically discussing actualities. If you were
to discuss with teenagers the qualities of being a mature adult it will be
up to them to process the information and decide where they are in
their maturity.

Markus6 said:
You have also chosen three men who come from the same very narrow portion of Christianity,

I chose one Baptist (Charles Stanley), one Presbyterian (R.C. Sproul)
and one non-denominational evangelical conservative (John MacArthur)
because I believe that all three of these men demonstrate the qualities
of a mature believer.

Markus6 said:
that their theology is comparable is not really a surprise.

If there is a mature believer who is a Roman Catholic or an Episcopalian
or Luthern, point the way. It is important to understand how the apostle
Paul was a mature believer as well... but I was looking at modern day
examples.

Markus6 said:
As I'm sure you do not know these three personally it seems they only way you can judge their maturity is on their doctrine

While I have had one of them as a pastor and written another, I do not
observe their personal walk as their family does. But based on everything
I do know about them...I chose these three because they do walk the
talk.

Markus6 said:
(unless you are counting their popularity and the size of their ministries).

There have been countless ministries that have large congregations but
are still indoctrinated with theological error.

Markus6 said:
As you are a single person you have clearly evaluated their doctrines in comparison to your own

Please understand....I disagree with the means of their conclusions
but agree with the conclusions themselves. I disagree with them far
more than on just the issue of pre-tribulational dispensationalism. Still
I see the quality of their characters and their consistency with the
apostle Paul.

Markus6 said:
(e.g. you can say eschatology is a peripheral theology and not "these three mature Christians disagree with me on eschatology therefore I must be wrong")

No. I say that they are wrong because of John Nelson Darby in the
19th Century and because of D.L. Moody influence (late 19th Century)
throughout the growth of a inductive theology in the early 20th
Century. I can list many theologies which I consider to be peripheral.
EDIT: For the record, I was wrong about R.C. Sproul. He does not
subscribe to the same eschatology as MacArthur and Stanley. I
should have thought of this since he is a Reformist.

Any two people who think exactly alike on everything...one of them
isn't thinking.

Markus6 said:
You have then deduced the doctrines of a mature believer from that.

Actually this would be "induction." And, yes, I am observing the
qualities of character of particular teachers whom I believe are
mature believers and looking at both their THEOLOGY as well as
what I know about their character.

Markus6 said:
It appears unfortunately circular to me.

From a non-practical (pure logic) point of view, the complexity of
this is probably be rooted in a circular argument somewhere. I haven't
dissected it other than to say that there are certain things which
it makes no sense to even share. But let me ask you a question -
"What do you believe is the life style of a mature believer and can
you be a mature believer and have false beliefs regarding the faithfulness
and the incredible grace of God?"

Markus6 said:
I think we'd be better learning to discuss doctrines with love (love being, I hope, the undisputed number one mark of Christian maturity),

Is pointing to God's love an act of love itself? Is pointing to the
faithfulness of God and pointing to the absolute grace of God in your
life and in mine NOT an act of love?

Is pointing out error in immature theologies NOT an act of love?

IF this is inflammatory in anyway....understand that this is hypothetical
analysis. IF someone gets upset, there is a theory regarding sub-conscious
feelings of envy and jealously, btw, which lack security. "Security"
is VERY important here. A secure believer is not going to be upset by
any accusation because they KNOW where they stand in relation to
God.

In fact, there is a theory that the unbeliever sub-consciously is jealous
of the believer because there is a spiritual hidden knowledge that is an
eternal knowledge regarding what is going to take place in the afterlife
that brings forth hatred.

My point is...we should be secure with all truth...and if someone is
upset by being accused of an immature theology...then perhaps were
there is emotion and insecurity - there is also hidden truth.

Breckmin · Oct 4, 2009

Markus6 said:
Labelling doctrines we disagree with immature seems counter-productive in our quest for the truth and the unity that is found in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

My immediate response would be to completely agree with this at first.
Perhaps for the sake of unity. Perhaps for the sake of agreeing that
we are all one in spirit. Perhaps it is because I often say "I would
rather be righteous than right." What I mean by this is I would rather
have unity in Christ and have His righteousness (Christ's righteousness
through the power of the Cross) than be right on a particular doctrine
or theology.

But there also comes a time to "analyze." Clearly, I'm not going to
walk into a Church of Christ that believes in baptismal regeneration
or a charismatic church that believes you can somehow lose your
salvation and explain to them that this is immature theology. It is
God's job to bring them out of such theologies and I have observed
this over and over from those who grow and begin to realize that
salvation is God's work and not their own.

But the question is still begged here "Are there certain doctrines
which become known to a mature believer?"

Let me give you an example:

A child believes if he does something bad...then God won't love
him anymore. This lacks an understanding of God's incredible love
for that child. This can be taken into adulthood as though "if a
person does something bad, then they will lose their salvation."

At some point if the believer continues to grow they are going
to learn what Romans 8 says and actually BELIEVE it and know it.

It will be the TRUTH that sets them free from self-condemnation.
They will know the truth of God's faithfulness...they will know the
truth of the Power of the Cross to forgive sins...and they will
finally begin to see that their salvation is totally dependent on
the Author and Finisher of their faith and not themselves.

It is a growth process.

toolite · Oct 5, 2009

Breckmin said:
I normally don't point to fellow men...because I believe our eyes should
always be on Jesus - the Author and Finisher of our faith.

But in this case, I'm encouraging a discussion on what makes a believer
a mature Christian. What are the qualities of a mature Christian? And
this is going to lead to "what does a mature Christian believe?"

There are three individuals in North America I am going to use for this
discussion. They all three have PhD's. and are well-known radio personalities
for those who listen to Christian radio in the United States.

1. Charles Stanley
2. John MacArthur
3. R.C. Sproul

The reason I am using these guys as an example of what I believe
is inclusive of a mature believer is because Christian maturity encompasses
THEOLOGY!

All three of these men of God would NOT want to be pointed to..but
would rather have the focus be on Christ. A mature Christian does
NOT want to be exalted.... they recognize that everything they are
is by the grace of God and the grace of God alone. Every mature
believer wants to glorify Christ and not themselves.

A mature Christian does NOT add to the Holy Cross of Jesus with
their own works. A mature believer understands that salvation is
by Grace through faith not of works - but only the work of Christ
and His atoning death.

With these men who speak regularly on the radio you have
a great professor and intellectual (R.C. Sproul), a great teacher
and biblical expositor (John MacArthur) and a great and powerful
preacher (Charles Stanley). What I am interested in alluding to
here, however, is humility. All three of these men are extremely
humble. They all have a DEEP love for Christ. They all three
agree that salvation is God's work in the hearts of men and that
prayer is an important part of changing the believer through
fellowship and worship of the Creator.

It is often said that a mature believer does NOT live in the past
(look back and worry about the past or wish they could have
changed something) but only learns from it....that a mature
believer does NOT live in the future (for no one knows the
future and you could die at any minute from various causes)
but only plans wisely for future events "if the Lord wills."

It is that a mature believer only lives in the present and acknowledges
that his very steps are ordained by God.... and the good works that
he does God has prepared for Him to do by His grace. It is important
to spend time in prayer - daily - with the Lord. All mature believers
do this.

THEOLOGY:

All three of these men would rightfully deny baptismal regeneration.

They would all deny that you could somehow "lose" your salvation
since they know that eternal salvation is incorruptible.

They would all three agree that it is the power of the Holy Spirit
in the life of the believer that comes through the meditation of
the things of God (Word of God) that builds faith and builds
Christian character that makes a believer more Christ-like.

They all three believe in the unique Deity of Christ and the
bodily Resurrection as well as a Trinitarian view of God. The
belief in the virgin birth is also an important part of being a
mature believer.

Eschatology is clearly peripheral theology...and I actually
believe that all three of these mature believers are clearly
WRONG on the inductive "pre-tribulational rapture" position
which is easily corrected by a Christian deductionist...so
you can be a mature believer and still be wrong on the rapture.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss "what makes a believer
a mature believer?" What do we need to learn in order to be
a mature believer?

Clearly there are immature theologies. The belief that you can
somehow "lose" your salvation is clearly one of them...because
it totally denies the Faithfulness of God in the life of the believer
and adds to the Holy Cross of Jesus with the believer's "keeping"
of his own salvation.

What about theistic evolution? Can you truly be a mature believer
and believe in universal common descent theory? Can you deny
original sin and still be a mature believer? I would say NO.

I would also say that the knowledge of a place of eternal separation
from God's glory and logical punishment (hell) is also an important
part of being a mature believer?

What are some essential beliefs of a mature believer?

If you say "biblical inerrancy" - keep in mind that this is a relatively
new belief structure and not a historical view or seen as a necessity
until the last hundred years or so....but a literal interpretation and
historical interpretation of the Torah/Tanach when possible IS a
historical position.

Can you be a mature believer and NOT believe in a worldwide flood?

Do you have to believe in Noah and the building of the ark?

What do you think?

In my opinion you only can be a mature believer and by your faith. Mature believer is feed food not milk. Its all spiritual things the world would doubt and say I can't believe that happen. See everyone is feed milk and depending on what your understanding and desire and faith you can feed more. But, how can you believe one thing when you don't believe the basics.

All The Glory Belongs To God!

Breckmin · Oct 5, 2009

toolite said:
In my opinion you only can be a mature believer and by your faith. Mature believer is feed food not milk. Its all spiritual things the world would doubt and say I can't believe that happen. See everyone is feed milk and depending on what your understanding and desire and faith you can feed more. But, how can you believe one thing when you don't believe the basics.

All The Glory Belongs To God!

Thank you, Toolite...for that analogy...but remember that an elderly
person once again eats soft food like a child.

Perhaps when we become a mature believer we go back to basics
and applying basic concepts to our relationship with God rather than
eating steak or fine adult foods.

I thank you for your comparision.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of Christ.... so
is there more to "hearing" than just processing adult food? I believe
that we can be hungry for steak but be "deaf" when it comes to the
relational stuff.

Our faith must be tested sometimes...God is faithful.

Breckmin · Oct 5, 2009

Questions:

CAN A MATURE BELIEVER LOSE HIS FAITH - TEMPORARILY?

The question involves extreme deceptions that God could allow
to test someone's faith.

Perhaps no one will relate....

Can a person be a mature believer and have an affair because they
did not keep themselves away from temptation?

I am thinking of a couple pastors (not Swaggart or Jim Baker) who
had radio ministries but fell for the so called "girl in the choir" who they
might have been counseling.

Can Christian maturity truly be measured?

Is there doctrinal maturity? And is there faithfulness maturity that is separate from this?

cowboysfan1970 · Oct 5, 2009

One thing that I think defines maturity in a person in general and as a Christian is when we realize that we (meaning each person individually) aren't always right.

jdale72 · Oct 5, 2009

I guess maturity can only be measured in the light of itself, there has to be a standard as a point of reference. Seeing that I lack the ability to reconize this standard I should probably stay out of this thread, but I'm to immature to help myself.

I do feel a mature brother will bear his weaker brothers burden, nor will he offend with his meat, he will walk in love to the build up of the Body. He does realize the love of Jesus Christ isn't stopped by the will of man and knows the will of the Father is for every man. He's known by his fruit ,love,joy,peace,meekness,kindness and when you see him you see his Father, Jesus Christ

stelow · Oct 6, 2009

stelow · Oct 6, 2009

toolite · Oct 6, 2009

Breckmin said:
Thank you, Toolite...for that analogy...but remember that an elderly
person once again eats soft food like a child.

Perhaps when we become a mature believer we go back to basics
and applying basic concepts to our relationship with God rather than
eating steak or fine adult foods.

I thank you for your comparision.

Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of Christ.... so
is there more to "hearing" than just processing adult food? I believe
that we can be hungry for steak but be "deaf" when it comes to the
relational stuff.

Our faith must be tested sometimes...God is faithful.

Most of the time when the bible is speaking its type and shadow. It was never meant actually food which has nothing to do with food- what needs food flesh but, God is a spirit.

Milk is different for everyone because its levels of understanding spiritually. Someone speaking in tongues to me thats milk. Simple and the person accepts it because they have an experience so it would be very hard for someone else to come along and contridict what that person believes because they had an experience.

Meat- going into the spirit/ being in God's presence/ Holy Ghost asked you to deliver a message and you do/ Being shown something that comes to pass and strong enough to pray and warn the person not doubting the Lord. You must have a foundation so he can build on that. We limit God and ourselves but, God has not limited us. Everything was given at birth. If we don't seek God to get it that's no ones fault but, our own. Because we always had it. How can God show some one who doesn't know God closely that something bad is going to happen they would think they were crazy and would miss confirmation (lol) because of the doubt. you must have a foundation of faith - Why would God show you something spiritually and he know you can not handle it?

All The Glory Belongs To God!

Breckmin · Oct 7, 2009

1. Live in the present knowing your very steps are ordained by God when you
are living by faith and not by the flesh.

2. Even when you are wrongfully living in the flesh God is teaching you and will
teach you eventually. Romans 8: 28

3. Don't live in the past. Don't regret. Don't wish to change your past. Instead
know that you are forgiven by the Power of the Cross and now obey God.

4. Don't make big plans for the future. Plan wisely knowing that you can be
taken home at any time.

5. We all should sign a the bottome of a blank piece of paper and let God
write His will for our lives. Live by faith.

6. Meditate on the Word of God.

7. Do not add your own works to the Holy Cross of Jesus. This is the mark of
a mature believer in my conviction. If anyone wants to take issue with this, I
consider it very important to talk about and consider both soteriology and
eternal security to be on topic in this thread.

8. Do not add your own keeping of your own salvation to the Cross. God is
faithful. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is God's work not our own.

9. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, humility, joy at the grace God has extended
to you in Christ.... these are all important marks of spiritual maturity.

10. Dependence. Recognizing that you are totally dependent on God for each
and every day is just one aspect of humility. Praying always for protection
against temptation and pride. Praying always for protection against lies and
deceptions and things which are not from God.

Recognize you are just clay. The point at which you begin to live a lifestyle
which models faithfulness and holy (obedient) living... this is the product of
Christian maturity imho.

This isn't an easy thread to respond to. This is the most difficult thread I
have ever started because of the implications of doctrines which I believe
reflect a mature mindset for a Christian.

Often these need to be learned...

And like Toolite says -

All the Glory Belongs to God!

stelow · Oct 8, 2009

Breckmin · Oct 10, 2009

Conclusion: All Christian maturity is relative then? And only God looks at the
heart and knows the relative maturity of the believer?

Is Christian maturity relative to obedience as well as knowledge?

Every mature believer is still teachable, still learning incredible things...still preshing
toward the eternal prize which is laid before us...

so is there no way then to quantify maturity because it is too complex?

cowboysfan1970 · Oct 17, 2009

Another thing is when we realize that it is just as important to pray for others as it is ourselves.

NatalieJan777 · Oct 23, 2009

Breckmin said:
It is that a mature believer only lives in the present and acknowledges
that his very steps are ordained by God.... and the good works that
he does God has prepared for Him to do by His grace. It is important
to spend time in prayer - daily - with the Lord. All mature believers
do this.

If this is truly a sign of a mature christian then why do so many argue theology? Is it not all either past or future?

To me, a mature Christian displays the following qaulities:

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control...

What are the qualities and doctrines of a MATURE Believer?

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