What are the implications of an infinite large universe?

[Bradskii]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

 

[SelfSim]

Sounds like this thread should be called: 'Bradskii's Infinite Universe Challenge'(?)

 

[honey badger]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

2. the implication of an infinite universe ( it having no beginning and no end and therefor unmeasurable) would be that no conclusion could be reached to what is actual ... and for this same reason God can not be defined/named/measured by reason ...

 

[adderbolt]

Can an infinite universe exist outside of time?

Or is time necessary for the individual parts of an infinite universe to coordinate themselves in a compatible manner?

 

[trophy33]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

3. It does not have to be right, but it may be right.
(some things are possible, but so unlikely, that they will not happen no matter how much time is given)

 

[apogee]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

42

 

[Mark Quayle]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

I'm not sure I understand. To say that the universe is infinite, is not the same as to say the universe is infinitely large.

Further, if the universe is infinite, how does that imply that all things possible are actual?

Is 'possible' actually able to happen, or merely our perception of the unknown? Hasn't history shown us, at least as far as we know, that only one thing --whatever happens-- is all that can happen?

 

[AV1611VET]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

2

Bigger isn't always better.

 

[public hermit]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

I'm thinking that cannot be right (might not be right?). Couldn't the universe be infinite, and yet events within that universe be finite and unable to realize all their respective possibilities?

There's an (ersatz) possible world where I am born with 9 toes. In the actual universe, I was born with ten toes and, unless I'm born again (literally), it looks like this will be the only possibility that will be realized in this (assumed for the sake of argument) infinite universe.

I guess I'm thinking of something like the fallacy of division where it is assumed the parts of some entity must have a particular property because that property is exhibited by the whole.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm thinking that cannot be right (might not be right?). Couldn't the universe be infinite, and yet events within that universe be finite and unable to realize all their respective possibilities?

There's an (ersatz) possible world where I am born with 9 toes. In the actual universe, I was born with ten toes and, unless I'm born again (literally), it looks like this will be the only possibility that will be realized in this (assumed for the sake of argument) infinite universe.

I guess I'm thinking of something like the fallacy of division where it is assumed the parts of some entity must have a particular property because that property is exhibited by the whole.

But is not 'possibility', like chance, merely our perception? What is actually possible? Only one thing, no? We are only guessers as to what is possible.

 

[public hermit]

But is not 'possibility', like chance, merely our perception? What is actually possible? Only one thing, no? We are only guessers as to what is possible.

I'm not sure. I'm sure there are possibilities we couldn't imagine. But the ones we can imagagine cover a lot of territory.

I can imagine a possible world just like this one in every way, except I have on a blue shirt instead of the gray one I'm wearing in the actual world. That's just one possibility, one small change in what could have been. We could keep imagining new possibilities, little changes, probably forever.

I guess it makes sense to say it's a matter of perception, to a point. We can only think of possibilities that have some resemblance to the world we know. Most possible worlds we can imagine are going to be close enough to this one that the words we use to describe it make sense to us.

But perhaps there are possible worlds so far from the actual world, and thus so different from our experience, that we would have no words to describe them. Perhaps there are unimaginable possible worlds with different physical laws, for instance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not sure. I'm sure there are possibilities we couldn't imagine. But the ones we can imagagine cover a lot of territory.

I can imagine a possible world just like this one in every way, except I have on a blue shirt instead of the gray one I'm wearing in the actual world. That's just one possibility, one small change in what could have been. We could keep imagining new possibilities, little changes, probably forever.

I guess it makes sense to say it's a matter of perception, to a point. We can only think of possibilities that have some resemblance to the world we know. Most possible worlds we can imagine are going to be close enough to this one that the words we use to describe it make sense to us.

But perhaps there are possible worlds so far from the actual world, and thus so different from our experience, that we would have no words to describe them. Perhaps there are unimaginable possible worlds with different physical laws, for instance.

I'm not here denying there are other worlds etc. What I'm getting at is the notion that it is not possible for anything to happen that does not actually happen.

We know the future only within the range of possibilities, but that is actually only our guessing. The unknown past is also only known by our guessing. The unknown principles and habits of the universe are also only known by our guessing. But the fact we must guess does not govern reality. We talk big, like this or that is possible, but the fact we do not yet know what is the fact does not mean that guess has any reality to it.

What makes me grin is the fact that we even predict, using math! We call it probability, and some even have the temerity to use the word, 'chance', carelessly, as if it had the (illogical) ability to govern events. The math even works some times-- maybe most times! Yet the truth continues its merry way, without regard to our guessing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If the universe is infinite then anything possible is actual. I have two comments:

1. That must be right.
2. That cannot be right.

Pick a number...

I'm not sure I understand. To say that the universe is infinite, is not the same as to say the universe is infinitely large.

Further, if the universe is infinite, how does that imply that all things possible are actual?

Is 'possible' actually able to happen, or merely our perception of the unknown? Hasn't history shown us, at least as far as we know, that only one thing --whatever happens-- is all that can happen?

Maybe it would have been more to the point, for me to say, simply, that the only thing actual is possible. And conversely, the only possible things are actual in any universe.

Our speculation is of no consequence as to reality.

 

[public hermit]

I'm not here denying there are other worlds etc

I hear you. I'm not saying there actially are other worlds, either. I'm just using talk of "possible worlds" as a way to discuss possibilities and counter factual instances.

What I'm getting at is the notion that it is not possible for anything to happen that does not actually happen.

I see what you mean now about it being a matter of perception. The future is unknown, so when we talk about possibilities we're simply acknowledging we don't know. Probabilities, as you mentioned makes us feel a bit more secure, but doesn't entail that we know, haha.

So are you saying even if the universe is infinite, there is only one actuality possible, i.e. there is only one way the infinite universe could be?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I hear you. I'm not saying there actially are other worlds, either. I'm just using talk of "possible worlds" as a way to discuss possibilities and counter factual instances.



I see what you mean now about it being a matter of perception. The future is unknown, so when we talk about possibilities we're simply acknowledging we don't know. Probabilities, as you mentioned makes us feel a bit more secure, but doesn't entail that we know, haha.

So are you saying even if the universe is infinite, there is only one actuality possible, i.e. there is only one way the infinite universe could be?

Yes, if I understand what you are asking. Knowing that what some people refer to the as the 'Omni' (which in my estimation can never contain God, though he can be there too) theoretically, at least, may involve many universes such as ours, I usually refer to THE UNIVERSE as this one we are familiar with. (I cannot stomach the notion of each universe having its own God. To me that is not God. Also it logically is not first cause, as causation must apply to all rational notions of universes, individually and collectively. First cause cannot, logically, be governed by any external principle.)

There are those who also refer to each individual galaxy as a Universe. But that is not really part of this discussion, I think. Just mentioning it by way of definition.

The 'Omni', if it contains God, is only an intellectual consideration --not an actuality. If it does not contain God, it is the whole matter of many universes or whatever is actual. Either way, though, the notion that our imaginations govern fact, is irrational.

 

[public hermit]

Yes, if I understand what you are asking. Knowing that what some people refer to the as the 'Omni' (which in my estimation can never contain God, though he can be there too) theoretically, at least, may involve many universes such as ours, I usually refer to THE UNIVERSE as this one we are familiar with

Hmm. I took the OP to mean there is one universe, and that universe is infinite.

I wasn't really thinking it meant an actual omniverse. But, if so, and there are an infinite number of universes, that changes the conversation, I think.

If there are an infinite number of actual universes, the idea that all possibilities are actualized makes more sense. Maybe I misunderstood the OP?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hmm. I took the OP to mean there is one universe, and that universe is infinite.

I wasn't really thinking it meant an actual omniverse. But, if so, and there are an infinite number of universes, that changes the conversation, I think.

If there are an infinite number of actual universes, the idea that all possibilities are actualized makes more sense. Maybe I misunderstood the OP?

I don't know whether he meant by infinite universe one, or an infinite number of 'universes', using the word 'universe' instead of 'omni', (nor even if by one, he intended 'infinitely large', as his title line seems to want).

And I haven't heard back from him concerning my notion that all possibilities are actual in any universe (--that is, that anything actual is also possible, and vice versa. If it was not actual, it was not possible to be. If it is not, it is not possible to be. If it will not, it will not have been possible to be.)

 

[public hermit]

-that is, that anything actual is also possible, and vice versa. If it was not actual, it was not possible to be. If it is not, it is not possible to be. If it will not, it will not have been possible to be

I'll throw in my two cents while you wait, lol.

That sounds very deterministic, which is hard to imagine with an infinite universe. When I think of a determined order of events, I think of a beginning that necessarily orders all subsequent events. Maybe that's a flaw in my thinking.

When I try to imagine a determined order in an infinite universe, the determining causes continue to reach back to nowhere, i.e. just more events. I can't tell if it's ordered or random, because I have nothing to point to and say, "*this* is why all that followed happened the way it did."

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'll throw in my two cents while you wait, lol.

That sounds very deterministic, which is hard to imagine with an infinite universe. When I think of a determined order of events, I think of a beginning that necessarily orders all subsequent events. Maybe that's a flaw in my thinking.

When I try to imagine a determined order in an infinite universe, the determining causes continue to reach back to nowhere, i.e. just more events. I can't tell if it's ordered or random, because I have nothing to point to and say, "*this* is why all that followed happened the way it did."

But that is the problem with modern Christians, I think. Because of some kind of learned worldview, (strangely enough involving absolute individual 'rights', I think), they find it logical, at times, that only one cause can produce any effect.

Logic, following the law of causation, not to mention acquiescing to fact of the self-contradiction of 'chance' and 'random' governing anything, demands that all things are caused, except for first cause. Call it determinism, if you like, call it fate, if you wish, but it holds true in any case. I call it predestination.

(Einstein believed in Causation right up to the end. So did Hawking, I think, though he wasn't so sure --or at least didn't know how to reconcile some discovered things with causation. I'm guessing he was so intrigued by things happening without any direction to go to discover their cause, that he allowed for 'God to roll the dice'. But to me it is a bit ludicrous to use the rule of causation (which is what science is based on) to show that causation is not the rule.)

You say, "When I think of a determined order of events, I think of a beginning that necessarily orders all subsequent events. Maybe that's a flaw in my thinking." I see no flaw there. That is straight logic.

If you are able to obtain a copy of RC Sproul's "NOT A CHANCE --God, Science and the Revolt against Reason" I think you will find his arguments compelling.

 

[Bradskii]

3. It does not have to be right, but it may be right.
(some things are possible, but so unlikely, that they will not happen no matter how much time is given)

But surely if anything is possible then with an infinitely large universe, not only will it happen but it is actually happening now.