Idealist Only What are the eschatological views of "IDEALISTS"?

[LittleLambofJesus]

I noticed this "Idealist Only" tag on the drop down menu when creating a thread.
What are the Idealists eschatological views concerning prophecy fulfillment and is it an orthodox view?

Are there any on this Forum that are "Idealists?
Thanks............


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[mkgal1]

I found this article, LLoJ:

The Debate
One of the most intriguing books of the Bible is the book of Revelation. The imagery of the cosmic battle in heaven and on earth makes it a fascinating book to study. However, much debate surrounds the proper interpretation of this apocalyptic work. Is this book a prophecy of future events yet to take place, or have the prophecies of this book been fulfilled?

Two popular authors highlight the debate that continues in our present time. In his hit series Left Behind,Tim LaHaye writes a fictional account based on his theological position that the events of Revelation will occur in the future. Popular radio talk show host Hank Hanegraaff responded by attacking the theology of LaHaye. In his book The Apocalypse Code, Hanegraaff asserts that the events of Revelation were largely fulfilled in AD 70 with the fall of the Jerusalem Temple. He criticizes theologians like LaHaye for taking a hyper-literal approach to Revelation.{1} The debate has raised some confusion among Christians as to why there is such a debate and how we should interpret the book of Revelation.

The issues at the core of the debate between Hanegraaff and LaHaye are not new. Throughout church history, there have been four different views regarding the book of Revelation: idealist, preterist, historicist, and futurist. The idealist view teaches that Revelation describes in symbolic language the battle throughout the ages between God and Satan and good against evil. The preterist view teaches that the events recorded in the book of Revelation were largely fulfilled in AD 70 with the fall of the Jerusalem Temple. The historicist view teaches that the book of Revelation is a symbolic presentation of church history beginning in the first century AD through the end of age. The prophecies of Revelation are fulfilled in various historic events such as the fall of the Roman Empire, the Protestant Reformation, and the French Revolution. The futurist view teaches that Revelation prophesies events that will take place in the future. These events include the rapture of the church, seven years of tribulation, and a millennial rule of Christ upon the earth.

~Four Views of Revelation

 

[mkgal1]

And from Wiki, it looks as if the four different views mostly have to do with the first 19 chapters of Revelation:


Judgments Chapters 1 - 19: Four views

• Preterism: Many prophecies have already occurred in the past; This view denotes a 1st-century fulfillment concerning the literary text; real events have already transpired. Some events may be symbolic of other fulfillments, thus taking a symbolic interpretation of the text.
  • Partial preterism: Most prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the 1st century. The "thousand years" generally spans from the 1st century up to the second coming and last judgment, thus often applying an allegorical interpretation.
  • Full preterism: All prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled in the 1st century, including the second coming and the last judgment, with many Full preterists already applying an "Eternal State" to this present time.
• Futurism: Many prophecies will be fulfilled in the future, and in some cases might have an imminent fulfillment concerning the literal text; They believe in real physical events; Biblical literalism is emphasized.
• Historicism: Interprets the text as currently being fulfilled during the span of Christian history. Text is sometimes taken as symbolic of real events, rather than being literally true.
• Idealism: Present continual fulfillment of symbolical or literary text; spiritual events; Allegorical interpretation is emphasized. ~ Christian eschatological views - Wikipedia
  
  Someone who is more up on this than I am is welcome to correct me, but it seems to me that "Kingdom Theology" is a bigger picture part of this - one can either be an "Idealist" or an "amillennial" to advocate for this theology.
  
  Quoting Wiki article linked above:
  Kingdom-Dominion theology
  Main article: Kingdom theology
  Hermeneutics: Similar to the covenantal system, but emphasizes the Kingdom of God rather than the three covenants. Exemplified in works such as Graeme Goldsworthy's Gospel and Kingdom. The Old Testament is interpreted using typology and the grammatico-historical method. Revelation is read according to the conventions of the apocalyptic genre.
  
  Overview: God's purpose for all time was to redeem for himself a people through the death and resurrection of Christ. The incarnation of Christ is the centrepoint of the Bible and all history. The Old Testament is understood to contain a number of covenants and 'types' which are fulfilled in the past and future work of Jesus.
  
  Goldsworthy schematizes the Kingdom of God as the expression of God's rule over God's people in God's place. In the beginning, God himself ruled over Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. After the fall, the rule of God was expressed through the Law, the Judges, the King of Israel and finally the promise that God would write his law on his people's hearts (Jer 31:33). "God's place" came to be the Tabernacle in the wilderness, later the Temple in Jerusalem, and finally the promise of the indwelling Spirit of God (Joel 2, Ezek 37). His "people" were Abraham, the people of Israel, then the faithful remnant of Israel, and finally the promised Messiah (Ps 2).
  
  In the New Testament, God's rule is exercised through Jesus Christ the King, who is also the "temple" of God (John 2:19-21), over his people the Church (of which Israel was a type). Salvation for all people in all times is found by trusting (explicitly or implicitly) in Jesus. Thus, Abraham, Moses, David, and all Christians today are saved by the same faith. The Jews are regarded as special in God's plan (as in Romans and Ephesians) and yet the Old Testament prophecies regarding Israel find their fulfillment in Jesus and the Church rather than in a literal restoration of Israel.[1]
  
  Adherents: Held by reformed, evangelical Protestants (especially Sydney Anglicans), similar to the covenantal theological view.
  
  Approaches to Revelation: Usually idealist and amillennial. Revelation describes what is happening throughout the Christian era, from Pentecost to the second coming. This view acknowledges that there may be valid preteristic connections (e.g. the seven hills = Rome) but the full understanding comes through an idealistic-historicism (but without seeing the Roman Catholic Church as the antichrist). The events of the book while not to be tied to particular historical events, still describe the sorts of things that will happen until Christ returns. The book of Revelation is interpreted according to apocalyptic conventions regarding numbers and colours (7 = perfection/completion, white = victory) and the enormous number of allusions to the rest of Scripture.[2][3]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for that info.
I found some sites, mainly Preterist ones.

The way it looks to me, it appears this group is just a step away from Full Preterism, but still within the bounds of mainstream orthodox Christianity.
Now I wonder if there are any of these Idealists on CF to chat with ehehe?
Interesting........

https://www.preteristarchive.com/Idealism/2016_dennis_pi-hermeneutic.htm

Introduction to a Hybrid of Preterism and Idealism | DuBois: My Thoughts and Understanding of Preterist Idealism | The Covenants, The Jerusalems, The Flesh and The Spirit | Jerusalem as the Heart | Historical-Typological Method of Giblin

Any Unique Characteristics of View:

Amplification of Preterist Fulfillment

The Idealist method of interpretation is a hermeneutical super-structure which is best applied to the Preterist view, in that it offers present truth regarding the fulfillment of historical typology which has come to pass. The greater benefit, however, is the systematic explanation of kingdom life and personal eschatology. Awareness of the kingdom's inner workings tremendously assists believers in the sojourn. Enemies of the Gospel are likewise to be made aware of their unchangeable fate outside of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

The chronological method of Preterism is critical to understanding the fulfillment of the biblical types and shadows. However, these types and shadows must be seen in relation to Jesus Christ consistently to avoid idolatry. The same hermeneutical results can also be achieved by modifying Futurism and Historicism similarly.
By focusing on the eternal unseen things as being of primary prophetic significance, the Christocentric Eternalism found in Preterist-Idealism can recover the extreme elements of each and every theology. Full Preterism has the most to gain by systematizing types, as that approach will remove its stain of heterodoxy.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/~preteris/Idealism/index.html

John Noē - Preterist-Idealist

• He Never Left "..if you insist on limiting the comings of Jesus to only two times, then this second time occurred, chronologically, when Jesus came and appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:4-5) or to John on the isle of Patmos (Rev. 1). How do you count or discount those comings of Jesus?—and there are more." My working definition for “a coming of Jesus” is this: it’s a personal and bodily intervention and/or manifestation of Jesus into the life of an individual, a group, or a nation on this earth. As we shall see, there are many different types of comings for different purposes, and they occur at different times and places. Some are visible appearances; some are invisible interventions."
  
  
• An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelation (2007) “The revelation of Jesus Christ” (Rev 1:1) has a fuller significance and deeper character beyond its AD 70 eschatological fulfillment. Consequently, the preterist notion that it only applies to AD 70 when Christ supposedly came in “finality” is a weakness to be amended. And in a preterist-idealist synthesis, the strength of idealism remains that it “secures its relevance for all periods of the church’s history.” But its major weakness—i.e. “its refusal to see a firm historical anchorage”— is removed. That missing anchorage is supplied by Revelation’s A.D-70 fulfillment."

PRETERIST-IDEALISM (Modern Idealism) -
A) Umbrella term covering those who see the true focus of Bible prophecy as the work of Jesus Christ throughout all ages. Historical fulfillments in the history of natural Israel - notably in the events of Moses' and Jesus' generations - are seen as the outward "typological" show of the everlasting work of Christ.
B) Though Idealism has been taught by spiritually minded writers throughout the Christian era (such as the Allegorists, Quakers, Swedeborgians, Medieval Monks, and countless others), very seldom have forms utilizing a "Preterist modifier" been published. Saint Augustine is considered the father of Idealism, though systems anchored historically by the Preterist view are only now being developed among Modern Preterists. Those forms of Idealism without the "Preterist modifier" often qualify as Historicism or Futurism
C) The spectrum of known systems range from those more heavily Idealist (looking to Christ for the substance of prophecy) to those more heavily Preterist (looking to history for the substance of prophecy). (Fundamentally neither preterist nor futurist ; PreteristArchive.com's native approach ; More Information Here)


Nathan DuBois

"However, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed."

"The old covenant was only a copy of the real thing that blinded them. Ad 70 removal of the temple was only a copy of the true thing that stands in the way between God and man, that veil, that enmity, that law of sin and death which still exists for those outside Christ today."

• Planet Pret: Todd Dennis (Scott Thompson, Nate DuBois, et al) and Preterist Idealism (2007) "I was battling universalism, battling Ed Stevens etc. When I came up with much the same conclusions as Sam to try to explain the "what now." This led me down the road of looking into "what applies and doesn't apply from scripture. Like the Holy Spirit's ministry today, gospel preaching, etc. Todd saw these things and smiled. Then one day he shared some biblical rules. Like the external is only a show of the internal truth, and therefore cannot be the essence themselves (using Hebrews, etc.) He had a few of these. I took mental note."
  
  
• Scripture Interprets Scripture: Part One - The Covenants, The Jerusalems, The Flesh and The Spirit "Since most preterists agree that the kingdom is within and written on the heart and that the Spirit brought us to life and into an eternal covenant (the new covenant on the heart), then isn't the description of the Jerusalem from above warranted and accurate as a portrayal of our heart in Christ vs. the Jerusalem from below as our heart under the law?"
  • Full Preterism vs. Idealism: Part One - Introduction
    
    
  • Full Preterism vs. Idealism: Part Two - Full Preterism's Achilles Heel
    
    
  • Full Preterism vs. Idealism: Part 3: Full Preterism's "New" Gospel
    
    
  • Full Preterism vs. Idealism: Part 4: Full Preterism's Single Dimension Focus

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[mkgal1]

The way it looks to me, it appears this group is just a step away from Full Preterism, but still within the bounds of mainstream orthodox Christianity.

You mean "orthodox" as a way to say "accepted" and not considered heretical.....right?

To me....it seems like only the "idealist" view (without the preterist views added in - which is honestly getting sort of confusing for me to understand ) is based on Revelation ONLY being symbolic....and none of it describing actual events (that's what I'm getting anyway).

Based on what you shared (below).....I suspect I may be a "preterist-idealist" but I'm not yet sure. This is an excellent point:

John Noē - Preterist-Idealist

• He Never Left "..if you insist on limiting the comings of Jesus to only two times, then this second time occurred, chronologically, when Jesus came and appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:4-5) or to John on the isle of Patmos (Rev. 1). How do you count or discount those comings of Jesus?—and there are more." My working definition for “a coming of Jesus” is this: it’s a personal and bodily intervention and/or manifestation of Jesus into the life of an individual, a group, or a nation on this earth. As we shall see, there are many different types of comings for different purposes, and they occur at different times and places. Some are visible appearances; some are invisible interventions."

 

[mkgal1]

This is a lot to unpack (I think)....but this is another excellent point. I've read a lot of opposition here to the preterist view - suggesting that, if one believes in this theology, there's almost "nothing going on" with God in the present. I certainly don't believe THAT is true....but I think that's a misunderstanding of the preterist theology. This seems to clarify things quite a bit, though:

Consequently, the preterist notion that it only applies to AD 70 when Christ supposedly came in “finality” is a weakness to be amended. And in a preterist-idealist synthesis, the strength of idealism remains that it “secures its relevance for all periods of the church’s history.” But its major weakness—i.e. “its refusal to see a firm historical anchorage”— is removed. That missing anchorage is supplied by Revelation’s A.D-70 fulfillment."

 

[mkgal1]

"The old covenant was only a copy of the real thing that blinded them. Ad 70 removal of the temple was only a copy of the true thing that stands in the way between God and man, that veil, that enmity, that law of sin and death which still exists for those outside Christ today."

Let me know if this is getting too far off topic.

I completely agree with this quote by DuBois that the "removal of the temple was only a copy of the true thing that stands in the way between God and man, that veil" - but I think I DISAGREE on what that veil is.

Is that going to far off course? I think it's anything we substitute for God (which we tend to gravitate towards physical things - just like the ancient Jews were prone to desire a human king over God).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The way it looks to me, it appears this group is just a step away from Full Preterism, but still within the bounds of mainstream orthodox Christianity.

You mean "orthodox" as a way to say "accepted" and not considered heretical.....right?

To me....it seems like only the "idealist" view (without the preterist views added in - which is honestly getting sort of confusing for me to understand ) is based on Revelation ONLY being symbolic....and none of it describing actual events (that's what I'm getting anyway).

Based on what you shared (below).....I suspect I may be a "preterist-idealist" but I'm not yet sure. This is an excellent point:

Yes, it is a tad confusing.
At least the Full Preterists have the comfort knowing they can no longer be burned at the stake [at least as far as I know ehehe]..........
Gotta take those bulls by the horns........

That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Fireinfolding said: ↑
They REALLY call it papal BULL?

Is that for real or no?

A Papal bull is a particular type of letters patent or charter issued by a pope. It is named after the bulla that was appended to the end in order to authenticate it.......

Is the bull ExSurge Domine still standing today?

As some of you may now, the Surge Domine is a papal bull written in the times of the Reformation. It contains a number of condemned affirmations. One of those **condemned** proposition is number 33.

33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Questions:
1.- Do you think the bull is still standing?
2.- Do you think that means that Church, at least, condones the burning of heretics?
3.- Do you think Inquisitors sinned when they following due process in law condemned people to be burned for heresy?

it is a list of his errors
like
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
25. The Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, is not the vicar of Christ over all the churches of the entire world, instituted by Christ Himself in blessed Peter

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is a lot to unpack (I think)....but this is another excellent point. I've read a lot of opposition here to the preterist view - suggesting that, if one believes in this theology, there's almost "nothing going on" with God in the present. I certainly don't believe THAT is true....but I think that's a misunderstanding of the preterist theology. This seems to clarify things quite a bit, though:

Good points.
Dispensationalism is also a lot to unpack.
It appears that doctrine can take years of study, just to learn how to spell the word, much less just the basics [much like Catholicism].......

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. .............

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…

Dispensationalism

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

In the mid-1900's John Nelson Darby published a personal reinterpretation of history and Christian theology. Although Darby was neither theologian nor historian, the father of Dispensationalism and one time consort of witches supported heretical assertions such as a denial of the vicarious purpose of Christ’s obedience, imputed righteousness and an anti-semitic position that denied prophetic promises of a revived State of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14). His book provided the basis for the doctrine of Replacement Theology.

Darby's ideas were widely accepted and applauded by many including Bible publisher Cyrus Scofield and evangelist D.L. Moody. Darby’s dogma affected the American church so deeply that it permanently corrupted Protestant Christian ideology.

According to Darby’s Dispensationalist dogma, ancient Israel was destroyed by God and replaced by the church - hence the moniker Replacement Theology. According to Darby’s scenario the church thus became spiritual Israel - a metaphysical substitute for the real thing. In 1948 Divine Providence established the real State of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy. The unique historic event destroyed the foundation of Darby's entire philosophical construction resulting in its logical collapse. But logic is not necessary to fuel the purposes of those who prefer to walk in darkness. Although the light of God revealed Darby’s demonic deception, the church refused to acknowledge the truth that now stares it in the face. The State of Israel is real and the spiritual identity of the church no longer agrees with Darby’s interpretation. Facts don’t lie, but liars can concoct any explanation that suits them.

Israel has always been a stumbling block in the spiritual heart of mankind and despite the inauguration of the modern State of Israel Darby’s dogmatic problem has continued to fester for over seventy years. Apart from the fact the church as spiritual Israel cannot be justified by scripture and apart from the fact that the State of Israel does indeed exist in real time, adherents of Darby’s anti-semitic dogma continue to refer to the church as spiritual Israel - replacing the real thing.

The doctrine of Replacement Theology doesn’t hold water and so the disciples of Darby, choosing to believe a lie, continue to walk in waterless places, spiritually speaking.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
"The old covenant was only a copy of the real thing that blinded them. Ad 70 removal of the temple was only a copy of the true thing that stands in the way between God and man, that veil, that enmity, that law of sin and death which still exists for those outside Christ today."

Let me know if this is getting too far off topic.

I completely agree with this quote by DuBois that the "removal of the temple was only a copy of the true thing that stands in the way between God and man, that veil" - but I think I DISAGREE on what that veil is.

Is that going to far off course? I think it's anything we substitute for God (which we tend to gravitate towards physical things - just like the ancient Jews were prone to desire a human king over God).

Excellent post.
Since 70 ad the Jews have constantly denied Jesus as their savior and Messiah and have suffered thru out the 2000 yrs since then.
Jesus kept His promise to the Samaritan woman at the well concerning Jerusalem.,,

John 4:
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 “You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is out of the Judeans.
23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that its desolation is near.
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

After the Romans leveled it in 70ad, it was only good for dogs and scavengers to pick thru and grave diggers to bury the bodies..........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover....

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.

Ezekiel 39:15
As they go through the land, anyone who sees a human bone will leave a marker beside it until the gravediggers bury it in the Valley of Hamon Gog,

Jeremiah 50:39
“Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever,
Nor shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.


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[mkgal1]

It's amazing the depth of prophecies that can be discovered (when placed in the proper framework).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's amazing the depth of prophecies that can be discovered (when placed in the proper framework).

Yes indeed.
I [and others] can view the great City/Harlot/Queen as the 1st OC Jerusalem/Temple/Priesthood, but how does one explain the smoke of it going up forever when it is still there?
Has anyone noticed that the word for "avenging/vengeance" is used in only 3 verses of the Gospels? All in Luke.

Luke 18:
7 “And shall God not avenge<1557> His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
8 “I tell you that He will avenge<1557> them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

What is meant by "ALL THAT IS WRITTEN"

Luke 21:22
“For these are the days of vengeance/avenging<1557>,
that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Smoke of them and Her ascending forever - Revelation

Revelation 19:3
and a second time they have declared "Halleluiyah"!
and the smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
And He shall stretch out over it
The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.
13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces,
Nettles and brambles in its fortresses;
It shall be a habitation of jackals,
A courtyard for ostriches.
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals,
And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion;
Also the night creature shall rest there,
And find for herself a place of rest.


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[LittleLambofJesus]

I noticed this "Idealist Only" tag on the drop down menu when creating a thread.
What are the Idealists eschatological views concerning prophecy fulfillment and is it an orthodox view?

Are there any on this Forum that are "Idealists?
Thanks............
.

So far only 1 member has posted on this thread.
What about Idealism and what are others thoughts on it?

 

[One Son]

So far only 1 member has posted on this thread.
What about Idealism and what are others thoughts on it?

Lk.23:39(ESV) One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


The Stoning of Stephen

Acts7:54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at* the right (hand) of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at* the right (hand) of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.



*1537. ek or ex ►
Strong's Concordance
ek or ex: from, from out of
Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.
HELPS Word-studies
1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).

(Hand) is not in the text.


I believe Stephen had his Day of the Lord........Does that make me an Idealist?



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2Cor.5:17).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Approaches to Revelation: Usually idealist and amillennial. Revelation describes what is happening throughout the Christian era, from Pentecost to the second coming. This view acknowledges that there may be valid preteristic connections (e.g. the seven hills = Rome) but the full understanding comes through an idealistic-historicism (but without seeing the Roman Catholic Church as the antichrist). The events of the book while not to be tied to particular historical events, still describe the sorts of things that will happen until Christ returns. The book of Revelation is interpreted according to apocalyptic conventions regarding numbers and colours (7 = perfection/completion, white = victory) and the enormous number of allusions to the rest of Scripture.

Hello mkgal. Some more info:

What is the idealist interpretation of the book of Revelation?

Question: "What is the idealist interpretation of the book of Revelation?"

Answer: The idealist interpretation could also be called the symbolic or spiritual interpretation. It can perhaps be best understood in distinction from the other major interpretations of Revelation.
The futurist view would see the vast majority of Revelation as awaiting a future fulfillment.
The preterist (from the Latin word preter, which means “past”) sees the vast majority of Revelation as having been fulfilled around AD 70 with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
The idealist interpretation sees Revelation as being fulfilled all the time throughout the history of the church.

In the idealist interpretation, the symbols in Revelation are not normally thought to refer to specific individuals and historic events but to typical individuals and events. For instance, every generation will have an “antichrist” and a “mark of the beast”—any number of individuals, world leaders, or empires who exalt themselves against God are the “antichrist,” and those who follow those leaders receive his “mark.” Some part of the church is always going through tribulation, and there will be martyrs in every generation. The idealist interprets Revelation as the ongoing struggle between God and His people and Satan and those who follow him.

Regardless of the interpretation that one assumes, it seems that every interpreter applies Revelation in an idealistic way. The preterist thinks the primary interpretation refers to past events, but what is taught about those events is supposed to give strength and encouragement to the saints in their current struggle. The futurist expects the specific events in Revelation to unfold at the end of time, yet Revelation is still applicable today as the saints face struggles that prefigure that final struggle. By looking at how God will deliver the saints in the end times, the present-day church is to receive encouragement to persevere. The way the preterist and futurist apply Revelation is the way that the idealist interprets Revelation.

 

[Willie T]

So far only 1 member has posted on this thread.
What about Idealism and what are others thoughts on it?

It WAS labeled with a warning that anyone who did not officially call themselves an "IDEALIST" was not to participate.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It WAS labeled with a warning that anyone who did not officially call themselves an "IDEALIST" was not to participate.

Hello Willie T.
Seeing as there doesn't appear to be any Idealists around here, feel free to jump in. It is mainly an info thread anyway and perhaps not many are even aware of that doctrine.

We could always invite these guys

APPROACHES TO REVELATION: IDEALISM

The wry and sometimes disparaging humor of Ambrose Bierce is recorded in his Devil’s Dictionary. There he defines “Revelation” as follows: “Revelation. n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.” He would have loved our modern tele-evangelism use of Revelation.

Idealism, therefore, sees Revelation as presenting the ongoing struggle between good and evil, showing God’s work for good and his victory over evil by presenting “transcendent truths that are valid in every generation” (David deSilva). Advocates of idealism include William Milligan (1889), R. C. H. Lenski (1943), William Hendriksen (1967), Paul S. Minear (1968), and R. J. Rushdoony (1970), as well as modified (blended) idealist-preterists such as G. K. Beale (1999) and Poythress (2000).
=============================
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html

C. Preterist Idealism

This system was first developed by former Full Preterist Todd Dennis, and presented at the first annual “Carlsbad Eschatology Conference” in 2007 (hosted by Kurt Simmons); though it integrates elements from Preterism and other systems. Preterist Idealism teaches that the historical fulfillment of prophecy constitutes only the “shadows” of an eternal spiritual substance which believers obtain “in Christ.” New Testament typology is vertical rather than horizontal; and meant to point to the higher realties of the Christian life, rather than foreshadow things to come. Idealism relies heavily on the allegorical interpretation of prophetic texts. The system has a small number of adherents, most of them former Full Preterists.

 

[One Son]

Hello Willie T.
Seeing as there doesn't appear to be any Idealists around here, feel free to jump in. It is mainly an info thread anyway and perhaps not many are even aware of that doctrine.

We could always invite these guys

APPROACHES TO REVELATION: IDEALISM

The wry and sometimes disparaging humor of Ambrose Bierce is recorded in his Devil’s Dictionary. There he defines “Revelation” as follows: “Revelation. n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.” He would have loved our modern tele-evangelism use of Revelation.

Idealism, therefore, sees Revelation as presenting the ongoing struggle between good and evil, showing God’s work for good and his victory over evil by presenting “transcendent truths that are valid in every generation” (David deSilva). Advocates of idealism include William Milligan (1889), R. C. H. Lenski (1943), William Hendriksen (1967), Paul S. Minear (1968), and R. J. Rushdoony (1970), as well as modified (blended) idealist-preterists such as G. K. Beale (1999) and Poythress (2000).
=============================
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/index.html

C. Preterist Idealism

This system was first developed by former Full Preterist Todd Dennis, and presented at the first annual “Carlsbad Eschatology Conference” in 2007 (hosted by Kurt Simmons); though it integrates elements from Preterism and other systems. Preterist Idealism teaches that the historical fulfillment of prophecy constitutes only the “shadows” of an eternal spiritual substance which believers obtain “in Christ.” New Testament typology is vertical rather than horizontal; and meant to point to the higher realties of the Christian life, rather than foreshadow things to come. Idealism relies heavily on the allegorical interpretation of prophetic texts. The system has a small number of adherents, most of them former Full Preterists.

NET Bible
Heb.9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then* to face judgment.



* meta <3326>

meta meta

Pronunciation: met-ah'

Origin: a primary preposition (often used adverbially)

Reference: TDNT - 7:766,1102

PrtSpch: prep

In Greek: met 131, meta 295, mey 43

In NET: with 292, after 46, After 42, to 10, later 6, in 5, against 4, among 4, his companions 4, along with 2, companions 2, on 2, With 2, confidently 2, and 2, carries 1, then 1, bringing 1, along 1, without 1, accompanying 1, when 1, afterward 1, use 1, courageously 1, in company with 1, sue 1, joyfully 1, right behind 1, later on 1, hurriedly 1, hurried 1, eagerly 1, from 1, without losing dignity 1, his own companions 1, each 1

In AV: with 345, after 88, among 5, hereafter + 5023 4, afterward + 5023 4, against 4, not tr 1, misc 32

Count: 473

Definition: 1) with, after, behind.



What are your thoughts on the Greek word meta? Can we be judged when we die?



Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.