What are ghosts?

[JoeWill]

I have only had one ghostly experience in my lifetime, which I shared with my Mom as a small child.

While staying in a rented house, my Mom saw two ladies in period dress standing together one night. Then they were gone. Initially she dismissed this sighting as a figment of her imagination. But the next morning at breakfast, I apparently said "Mom, who were those two ladies who were here last night?"


I often wonder what we, as Christians, are supposed to think about ghosts. Are they:-

1) Non-conscious images of the past that have been preserved in some way?

2) Souls of people that have not passed on to Hades?

3) Attempts by the dark side to deceive us?


Has anyone else here ever seen a ghost? Is it wrong to even to think about them? And can the Bible cast any light on what we should believe in this area?

 

[Time2BCounted]

Tough question.

I dont know if there is one pat answer for every situation. I know i myself have had several experiences involving one thing or another, and my instinct, along wiht the few clues i have gotten from the word, is that at least many or most times, these are demons deceiving, casting doubts and fears.

 

[JoeWill]

Tough question.

I dont know if there is one pat answer for every situation. I know i myself have had several experiences involving one thing or another, and my instinct, along wiht the few clues i have gotten from the word, is that at least many or most times, these are demons deceiving, casting doubts and fears.

What "clues" are those?

 

[Time2BCounted]

What "clues" are those?

To be honest the scriptures do not address this issue directly to my knowledge, but i do see passages which can possibly be applied to give us some sort of confine...

Job 14

12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!


We also know that it is given unto man one to die, his works are over, and after this the judgement.

There are many reasons to believe these are not people. Note that in the bible too shen it talks of 'spirits' these are angels or demons.

 

[JoeWill]

To be honest the scriptures do not address this issue directly to my knowledge, but i do see passages which can possibly be applied to give us some sort of confine...

Job 14

12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!


We also know that it is given unto man one to die, his works are over, and after this the judgement.

There are many reasons to believe these are not people. Note that in the bible too shen it talks of 'spirits' these are angels or demons.

That's a very good Bible verse to use. But then again, I'm thinking of the time when Saul had the spirit of Samuel raised from the dead, which makes me wonder whether Job 14:12 is a general rule rather than an absolute one.

 

[Gregged]

Wasn't the medium at Endor shocked and surprised when she saw Samuel though? What I mean is that this was probably a very different experience to her than anything she had had previously when her "familiar spirit" had fed her information. This was a (one off) time when God had allowed Samuel to rise from his rest to shock Saul and confirm that the kingdom had been removed from him.

 

[£amb]

That's a tough question. I don't doubt there's something supernatural about some things, but what's causing it for real...I really don't know. I've heard someone say that it's really demons but don't know.

Here's my only experience I had: Me and a group of kids were hanging out in the graveyard at my church. We usually did this between eating the Wed. night meal and getting to choir practice. It was fall time and alot of leaves were covering the ground. Me and a girl named Lisa decided to leave the group and walk back up towards the church. We heard someone walking beside us cause we heard the leaves crunching beside us. We turned to see who was tagging along and it was no one. We kinda freaked and dashed up quicker towards the church, and the footsteps stayed right with us. The steps stopped as soon as we got up to the church.


Now if someone else was telling this story then I would assume it was the wind blowing the leaves around. What we heard was real and there was no mistaking it. Why we heard it...I couldn't tell ya why but it does make a good story.... What's funny is me and my oldest were just talking about this yesterday, and I told him that I honestly could not answer his question and to know exactly was ghosts/supernatural are.

 

[DesertScroll]

Hello, hope you don't mind me posting. I belong to the fundy forum, but I beleive one has to have 50 posts to be a member over here and I am one slow poster hence no sign up.

Anyways, if you mind I will delete it.

In 1 Sam, as someone mentioned is the story of Saul going to a medium at Endor. Saul was on his last leg so to speak as he was about to fight the Philisitnes for the last time. Samuel had died (1 Sam 28:3) and God would not answer Saul about the upcoming battle in any way (1 Sam 28:6). So he was feeling quite alone before this battle.

Saul had previously expelled the mediums and wizards from the land (1 Sam 28:3) but he asked his servants to find a medium for him and they said there was one in Endor (1 Sam 28:7). Paul disguised himself and the medium was very cautious thinking this person was setting up a trap for her telling him how Saul had banned mediums from the land. Saul swore to her nothing of the sort was going on (she still didn't know it was Saul) and so she agreed and asked who should she bring up and he said Samuel (1 Sam 28:11).

Now this is where it gets interesting. The medium was not surprised when she saw Samuel, the text doesn't leave any impression of that one way or the other, she cried out when she saw Samuel because she now knew this man who asked this of her was in fact Saul (1 Sam 28:12). And later in the text she is still worried about what Saul will do to her as she tries to get him to eat (1 Sam 28:21-25).

The next interesting thing is that Saul could not see Samuel, only the meduim could (1 Sam 28:13,14). Saul after hearing of what she saw bowed down towards the ground.

Then Samuel asked Saul why he had disturbed him (1 sam 28:15) so it seems Saul could hear him.

Now some like to say that it was not Samuel, but some other spirit taking his appearance citing verse 13 and verse 19 which says "and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me". On this it depends on where one thinks Saul and his sons would end up after death.

Against this view the text does say that it was Samuel and not just an appearance (1 Sam 28:12,14,15,16,20).

Now there are many verses against sorcery and mediums and how we are not to be apart of that and how people who partake of those things will not inherit the kingdom of God (for example Gal 5:19-21 Rev 21:8 Rev 22:15).

Demons and evil spirits are those which lay behind the ideas of idols and false gods and that those who worship and sacrafice to them are in fact sacrificing and worshiping demons (1 cor 10:20). And these demons and evil spirits do have some power and can perform signs, but they do so to deceive and draw away people from the power of God, a fasle power so to speak (Rev 2:4, 13:13,14 16:14, 19:20, 2 Thess 2:9 and others like Pharaoh's magicians in Exodus, but also see Elijah against prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel 1 Kings 18:16-46).

So from the story of Saul and the medium of endor it is hard to conclude one way or the other. Was it really Samuel? Was it by the power of the medium? Hard to tell just from that passage. But we can say that evil powers do exist, that they deceive people, and as Christians we are not to meddle in these type of things.

And going back to the story about Saul, the message he received from Samuel was nothing new, he was already told that his kingship was being taken away and it was being confirmed upon David. Going to the medium didn't help him one bit, what God had decreed because of Saul's actions (1 Sam 28:18) weren't going to change no matter who he consulted. He was never strong in just trusting God, unlike David. A contrast that sticks out everywhere in 1 Samuel.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Hello, hope you don't mind me posting. I belong to the fundy forum, but I beleive one has to have 50 posts to be a member over here and I am one slow poster hence no sign up.

Anyways, if you mind I will delete it.

In 1 Sam, as someone mentioned is the story of Saul going to a medium at Endor. Saul was on his last leg so to speak as he was about to fight the Philisitnes for the last time. Samuel had died (1 Sam 28:3) and God would not answer Saul about the upcoming battle in any way (1 Sam 28:6). So he was feeling quite alone before this battle.

Saul had previously expelled the mediums and wizards from the land (1 Sam 28:3) but he asked his servants to find a medium for him and they said there was one in Endor (1 Sam 28:7). Paul disguised himself and the medium was very cautious thinking this person was setting up a trap for her telling him how Saul had banned mediums from the land. Saul swore to her nothing of the sort was going on (she still didn't know it was Saul) and so she agreed and asked who should she bring up and he said Samuel (1 Sam 28:11).

Now this is where it gets interesting. The medium was not surprised when she saw Samuel, the text doesn't leave any impression of that one way or the other, she cried out when she saw Samuel because she now knew this man who asked this of her was in fact Saul (1 Sam 28:12). And later in the text she is still worried about what Saul will do to her as she tries to get him to eat (1 Sam 28:21-25).

The next interesting thing is that Saul could not see Samuel, only the meduim could (1 Sam 28:13,14). Saul after hearing of what she saw bowed down towards the ground.

Then Samuel asked Saul why he had disturbed him (1 sam 28:15) so it seems Saul could hear him.

Now some like to say that it was not Samuel, but some other spirit taking his appearance citing verse 13 and verse 19 which says "and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me". On this it depends on where one thinks Saul and his sons would end up after death.

Against this view the text does say that it was Samuel and not just an appearance (1 Sam 28:12,14,15,16,20).

Now there are many verses against sorcery and mediums and how we are not to be apart of that and how people who partake of those things will not inherit the kingdom of God (for example Gal 5:19-21 Rev 21:8 Rev 22:15).

Demons and evil spirits are those which lay behind the ideas of idols and false gods and that those who worship and sacrafice to them are in fact sacrificing and worshiping demons (1 cor 10:20). And these demons and evil spirits do have some power and can perform signs, but they do so to deceive and draw away people from the power of God, a fasle power so to speak (Rev 2:4, 13:13,14 16:14, 19:20, 2 Thess 2:9 and others like Pharaoh's magicians in Exodus, but also see Elijah against prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel 1 Kings 18:16-46).

So from the story of Saul and the medium of endor it is hard to conclude one way or the other. Was it really Samuel? Was it by the power of the medium? Hard to tell just from that passage. But we can say that evil powers do exist, that they deceive people, and as Christians we are not to meddle in these type of things.

And going back to the story about Saul, the message he received from Samuel was nothing new, he was already told that his kingship was being taken away and it was being confirmed upon David. Going to the medium didn't help him one bit, what God had decreed because of Saul's actions (1 Sam 28:18) weren't going to change no matter who he consulted. He was never strong in just trusting God, unlike David. A contrast that sticks out everywhere in 1 Samuel.

Great post, and pretty much my sentiments too.

Welcome Desert Scroll

 

[christianmomof3]

It is my understanding that the only place in the New Testament where the word "ghost" actually appears (not the mistranslation of Holy Spirit in the KJV) is when Jesus was walking on water and they thought it was His ghost and the greek word used was phantasm or something like that. So, apparantly there was a belief in ghosts in New Testament times as well. But, I am not sure what it meant there because if they thought it was a ghost meaning a spirit of a dead person the way the word is usually used nowdays then they would have had to have thought that Jesus was dead.

 

[Time2BCounted]

It is my understanding that the only place in the New Testament where the word "ghost" actually appears (not the mistranslation of Holy Spirit in the KJV) is when Jesus was walking on water and they thought it was His ghost and the greek word used was phantasm or something like that. So, apparantly there was a belief in ghosts in New Testament times as well. But, I am not sure what it meant there because if they thought it was a ghost meaning a spirit of a dead person the way the word is usually used nowdays then they would have had to have thought that Jesus was dead.

Yes, I've thought about that too. It seems though imho that there are many instances, like mary magdelene delivered of spirits. In all these cases these spirits were demonic, so i have to wonder if the term spirits actually means angelic in most or every case. Not that im dogmatic on the issue at all, but i do see the stronger case for this at least for the most part.

 

[3girls2dogs]

I've actually thought a lot about this. When I was a little girl, after my mom died, I used to think I saw her come to talk to me at night. As I grew, I knew they were just the desperate dreams of a lonely little girl.

I don't believe that *ghosts* exist in the Hollywood sense. I think that our subconscious sees what we may, at times, desperately need to see, either to comfort us or as needed proof so that we can continue on a path of blind faith, that we must admit to ourselves, is very scary sometimes.

 

[Simon_Templar]

There are numerous possible explanations. It is hard to know which is correct.

In the books of Esdras, it is said that when people die they are given a period of time to wander the earth before their soul is sent to the place of waiting. It was said that this was done so that the righteous could see what they had gained, and the unrighteous what they had lost. However the time was limited.

It is certainly possible, and I would say has occured many times that demons masquerade to deceive people.

More natural explanations could be possible as well. For example, it is conceivably possible that events of the past could be in a sense "recorded" by certain locations and then played back.

It may be possible for the righteous who have passed on to visit people here. There is the incident of samuel, and also the transfiguration of Jesus where Moses and Elijah appeared.

It is possible, though I think unlikely, that a soul may linger for some reason on earth as well. The only likely incident of this that I'm aware of is the souls of the Nephilim who were earthbound because they were not completely human and thus were refused entrance to the place of waiting. Of course, according to that story, they are what we would call demons.

 

[Rhamiel]

some could be a sort of natural event, like a recording on time and space
Some could be demons who try to trick people
some could be angels people misunderstand
some could be human souls before they get where they are going


or fairies...
tricky tricky fairies

 

[JoeWill]

Wasn't the medium at Endor shocked and surprised when she saw Samuel though? What I mean is that this was probably a very different experience to her than anything she had had previously when her "familiar spirit" had fed her information. This was a (one off) time when God had allowed Samuel to rise from his rest to shock Saul and confirm that the kingdom had been removed from him.

You make a good point and you may be right. On the other hand, we are only talking about the experience of one person.

Some people have mentioned the incident(s) where Jesus tells his disciples that he is not a ghost.


Luke 24:36-37 gives one account:

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?

39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Jesus responds to their concept of a ghost by showing that he has a resurrection body with physical attributes. So we see that although he corrects the disciples' fear that he is a ghost, he does not correct their idea that a ghost is the soul of someone who has died.

Does this lend weight to a view that a ghost can be a soul, and mitigate any view that sightings are always demonic?

 

[JoeWill]

There are numerous possible explanations. It is hard to know which is correct.

In the books of Esdras, it is said that when people die they are given a period of time to wander the earth before their soul is sent to the place of waiting. It was said that this was done so that the righteous could see what they had gained, and the unrighteous what they had lost. However the time was limited.

It is certainly possible, and I would say has occured many times that demons masquerade to deceive people.

More natural explanations could be possible as well. For example, it is conceivably possible that events of the past could be in a sense "recorded" by certain locations and then played back.

It may be possible for the righteous who have passed on to visit people here. There is the incident of samuel, and also the transfiguration of Jesus where Moses and Elijah appeared.

It is possible, though I think unlikely, that a soul may linger for some reason on earth as well. The only likely incident of this that I'm aware of is the souls of the Nephilim who were earthbound because they were not completely human and thus were refused entrance to the place of waiting. Of course, according to that story, they are what we would call demons.

I listened to the British evangelist Peter Scothern talking about the time when he was asked to exorcise a school.

The temperature at the school had dropped to such an extent that teachers and pupils were wearing hats and scarves in class, with the heating on full blast.

This temperature change was accompanied by doors that closed themselves and the rustling of papers in the offices. Two elderly ladies who came to the school saw a figure and recognised it as a long dead headmistress who had once served there.

When Peter arrived at the school, he prayed, and God gave him a passage from the Psalms to recite. Peter felt as though he was putting a soul to rest, and I think he did believe that it was the old headmistress.

Then all the supernatural occurences ceased, and the school suddenly became unbearably hot, presumably because the entity had gone and the heating was still turned right up.


I think some people probably have a ministry for dealing with this type of manifestation, but the lack of info about ghosts in the Bible is probably to do with the fact that we are generally not to meddle with this aspect of the supernatural.

 

[theVirginian]

Ghosts are low level devils impersonating dead people and even pets called Familiar Spirits. Unbelievers who see them tend to end up believing that Heaven and Hell aren't absolutes. These devils want to take up residence and eventually embed themselves into the unbelievers' and unsuspecting believers' lives. This is not good. They should be treated like any other devil and run off in the name of Jesus.