what am i morally responsible for?

[LynneClomina]

i have a book on speakers illustrations i just got, and it has as one of the illustrations the following:

Character
J.D. Jones, a preacher, said, "We are morally responsible for every wrong we have the power to prevent."

do you agree? why or why not?

how does it play in your mind when it comes to the following situations:

stepping in and:
-stopping a rape
-stopping a murder
-stopping an abortion

where is the line? how far do we go? what really IS our responsibility as christians, anyways?

im not so much asking for theological answers perse, i am asking for personal convictions, but both are welcome for discussion.

 

[cleaveun2him]

Although I understand where Mr. J. D. Jones is coming from I am not at all sure that there is a commandment or a teaching within the Bible that backs that statement up. On the other hand if we are aware of a wrong in progress and do nothing what does that say? We may not always be able to intervene directly as in the first two cases that you mentioned, but we could surely at least call 911. As to the third, we can give the lady in question options. We can support her and listen to her problems without judgement.

I know I have been thinking alot about the recent decision by the French government to not allow any children wearing an obvious sign of their religion. I know what I would do were I in France, but I am not. I know this, I will watch the situation closely.

 

[LynneClomina]

i think why this is on my mind is because of that ex-pastor who was put to death because of killing an abortion doctor. i believe that he reasoned that he was preventing many many murders. when i saw the above quote, i was thinking - if someone really embraces that THEY are responsibe for not stopping a wrong that they KNEW was happening or would happen.... where do we draw the line? as a good christian??? where is the line in the issue of breaking the law of man so as to not break the Law of God? (ie the right/wrong of God - i aint arguing about the law's relevancy for today.) the law of God always comes first.

why is it ok for someone to forcibly stop a rape, and possible hurt or even kill the rapist in the doing so (defence), but not forcibly stopping an abortion??? when the children cannot defend themselves??? pro-lifers arent even allowed to PROTEST half the time. that is so TOTALLY off balance.

i totally agree with giving the lady options....
but would we do the same thing if she were going to kill a three year old?

i am NOT NOT NOT promoting murdering abortion doctors!!!! i just struggle with the LINE. where is the line???? why the difference between death in self defence and death in the defense of others????

any thoughts????

 

[bornetobefree]

Lynne, this is one of those topics that is just so hard to get a general answer on that fits even the majority. However, from a personal standpoint, I do not see any sect of Christianity that truly abides by the Word of God, as being anything remotely near an eye for an eye type law. I might be mistaken, for I have not studied the Bible very long; but what I have studied, I just do not see it. I do not see anywhere in the Bible where it states it is ok, or even good, to do away with those who help with abortions, or anything alike. I am not a supporter of abortions, but I am not going to go out of my way to hurt another person simply because they perform them. Yes, it is our duty as Christians to help prevent bad from happening, but we are only human. God understands this, and keeps score for everyone. He knows when we do what we are supposed to do, and when we do not. We just need to have faith, and know, that what we are doing is in the accordance of the Word. Personally, the only time I could ever "do" anything to prevent an abortion from ever happening again, is if I personally were witness to one. I would not go to the extent of killing the person performing it, because I know God does not want this, but I would "do" something. I cannot say what that something is, but I know I could not just stand there and allow it to happen. But in the meantime, I pray that the world becomes more understanding that abortion is not correct according to the will of God. And as we see in the Bible, and are taught over and over again...Prayer is a powerful thing! So I will keep praying.

-Borne

 

[LynneClomina]

i think if someone were to "witness" an abortion over and over and over again IN THEIR MIND as they think about it, and having the strong conviction that it is murder over and over and over again that is taking place, i can see what would drive them to drastic measures. """stop the next murder that's gonna happen here! stop the murderer!"""

consider this: if there is a serial rapist/murderer on the rampage, snagging all the 14 year old girls, and it was SANCTIONED by the government... what if the 14 year old parents just decided, well gee, i dont really want this problem anymore, so here Mr. serial rapist/murder take my kid... and the kid NEVER had ANY SAY in it, NEVER had ANY chance to defend it's self, and still, the government SANCTIONED it, and anyone who tried to stop it was put in jail.... wouldnt some ppl get upset about how ungodly the situation was and do some renegade? becuase even though the parents dont want the kids, the kids dont have a chance, and the government says it's ok, it is so WRONG????? it is so ANTI - God???

i honestly can't say that in that situation i WOULDN"T do something... :o i would even hope i would.... maybe....

but drawing the LEGITIMATE parallel between 14 year olds and -4 month olds (as yet unborn)... i have to say that i am ashamed of my double standards....

i have a friend with a 9 year old son... if i knew that at 3:00 today someone was GOING to attack him, and that the legal system would not even try to stop the attack, and i could go to jail, i would go over there if i could (and i should) and try to stop it.... even if it meant the only way to stop the attack was to mortally wound him.

however, fortunately, that would be generally accepted by the legal system as being "in (self)?- defense" and would say that's non-punishable. and christians would say the same thing, i'm sure. the circumstances warrant it.

but in the case of the unborn... it is EXACTLY like the above examples.

why am i so apathetic about the unborn? why am i content to give out some pamphlets and advise the women of other options to the government sanctioned murder they are about to commit?

THAT is the crux of this thread.... HOW do we find the line between doing what is good and acceptable in the eyes of God and doing what the world sees as right? WHAT am *I* morally responsible for? if i'm not responsible for a fetus, then WHY would i be responsible for a 9 year old, a 14 year old, or my neighbour next door screaming as their are being.......

WHERE is the LINE???

anybody????

what if your neighbour was screaming for that reason.... is it good enough to just phone the police? or are you morally responsible for going over there and trying to help the poor woman even though you could get SERIOUSLY hurt??? God says, whatever you do to the least of these you do to me....

 

[Knee V]

My take:

If I happened upon a crime such as rape, murder, I would defend the victim to my death or the death of the person committing the crime. I would try not to kill the person if possible, but I believe that in defense of someon's life that is acceptable. However, I would not kill a murderer if he/she was not in the process of killing someone. That is the government's job (for which it gets a failing grade in my book). I wouldn't kill an abortion doctor because he had killed hundreds of babies. But if I walked into the middle of an abortion, I would do what I have to stop it, even if the life of the doctor is taken in the process. And if I was walking past an abortion clinic and I knew a woman was going in to get an abortion, she would not get through the doors.

As far as drawing a line between our responsibility to obey God but follow the rules of the land, look at Daniel. The law was that you do not pray to or petition anyone but the king. But that was contrary to God's command so Daniel (rightfully) disobeyed the law of the land to follow God's Law. So for me, as long as the laws don't contradict God's laws, I'm obligated to follow them. But if there's a contradiction, I'm sticking to God's Word.

 

[LynneClomina]

thanks for sharing knee-v. awesome. i would love to say i would stop someone from an abortion.... but i dont know.

again, where is the line? what is so different from happening to walk past an abortion clinic and stopping somebody from going in, and DELIBERATELY walking past or to and stopping somebody.... and going into the clinic and getting into the operating room or whatever they use and stopping one that is going on?.... some of these places do nothing but abortions all day long...

it's a continuum. so where is the line? why do we say stopping someone from going in if you happen to be there is acceptable, but going into the clinic on purpose, whatever might happen, as being bad?

you said you do not think it is your place to kill a murderer for having murdered in the past, i agree.... but when we know that murderer who is getting off scott free is gonna murder again, and again, and again today, tomorrow, and all year long? why do we condemn someone who acts against that kind of person? again, the analogy of a serial rapist/murderer on the loose - and we find out when and were they're gonna get their next victim - and the government says, oh, there's no problem with that, it's ok, we're gonna let it happen. is it our responsiblity to act in that case? how do we know? and why is serial/rape and murder of a 14 year old girl "bad" but a unborn child "ok"??? oh, Lord, change those laws, Lord, and make the govt. stop this. Lord, help me understand where the line is between my responsibility and not my responsibility. amen.'

any thoughts???

 

[Plan 9]

Frankly, I would start by attempting to determine who is entering such a clinic to have an abortion and who is not before I approached anyone at all. A Christian friend of mine had a horrific experience while entering such a clinic from which she has never fully recovered.
Similarly, I would attempt to determine who among the staff is actually promoting abortions just because he or she works at a clinic before subjecting such a person to verbal abuse, much less rifle fire.
I also would not send out graphic images of aborted foetuses in wholesale mailings, since many of them end up in the mailboxes of women who had abortions as teenagers, often because they were pressured into doing so by adults, or were raped, or both, and are already wracked with guilt for an act for which they were only technically responsible and can never reverse.

 

[LynneClomina]

i saw a...8? minute video called.... the hard truth (?) or something like that, and it was this beautiful love kind of song and set to it were the sad little fetuses. i hadnt realized that they were often literally dismembered while still alive in the womb. it was a very powerful video. gee.

 

[Plan 9]

i saw a...8? minute video called.... the hard truth (?) or something like that, and it was this beautiful love kind of song and set to it were the sad little fetuses. i hadnt realized that they were often literally dismembered while still alive in the womb. it was a very powerful video. gee.

I agree with you. Even a set of good photographs, which don't have the effect of such a well-made video, are powerful enough to drive already repentant women to suicide, although I realise that isn't the intent of the people who distribute them.
That's why I feel we have a responsibilty to be very careful.