What about Hyperdulia?

DD2008 · Aug 1, 2010

lionroar0 said:
Nicene Creed answers that question.

No it doesn't. Only God knows the answer to that question. A person is not a Christian unless they have faith in Christ. It doesn't matter what they claim on the outside or what position they hold in whatever denomintation. Only those with faith in Christ are Christians.

lionroar0 said:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Strong's G3000 - latreuō
λατρεύω
a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship

Case closed. The bible teaches that prayer is a form of worship. Giving latria by prayer Luke 2:37. Prayer and fasting as Latria Luke 2:37.

lionroar0 said:
Prayer has more then one meaning. Both in English and Greek.

If one is blind enough to believe that the context in which we are discussing prayer means anything other than religious prayer that the bible teaches is worship then there is no way to have a normal discussion. That one would require spiritual help in order to be able to see clearly.

Searching_for_Christ said:
I don't know why we are arguing about the definition of prayer. Whatever the definition is, it has to be made in light of what the Bible teaches prayer is. If the bible teaches anywhere that prayer is a form of worship, and that its only to be done TOWARDS God..then does your definition that Websters give really matter? I think not.

Exactly. They bible is the Word of God. When we read or hear it we are listening to the thoughts and teachings of God himself.

lionroar0 · Aug 1, 2010

Case closed. The bible teaches that prayer is a form of worship. Giving latria by prayer Luke 2:37. Prayer and fasting as Latria Luke 2:37.

Originally Posted by lionroar0

Prayer has more then one meaning. Both in English and Greek.

If one is blind enough to believe that the context in which we are discussing prayer means anything other than religious prayer that the bible teaches is worship then there is no way to have a normal discussion. That one would require spiritual help in order to be able to see clearly.

Case is close. Only if one consciously decides to ignore the other valid definitions.

I think we can see pretty clearly who's blind and who's not.

lionroar0 · Aug 1, 2010

No it doesn't. Only God knows the answer to that question. A person is not a Christian unless they have faith in Christ. It doesn't matter what they claim on the outside or what position they hold in whatever denomintation. Only those with faith in Christ are Christians.

Does that include Jehova's witness and Mormons. Who also profess to have faith in Christ?

According to your logic they are Christians. How about oneness pentecostals that deny the Trinity? They also profess to have faith in Christ but yet deny the Trinity. According to your logic they are also Christian.

I guess if one can deny the basic tenents of Christianity but profess to have faith in Christ then, one still a Christian. That is according to your logic.

lionroar0 · Aug 1, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
I don't know why we are arguing about the definition of prayer. Whatever the definition is, it has to be made in light of what the Bible teaches prayer is. If the bible teaches anywhere that prayer is a form of worship, and that its only to be done TOWARDS God..then does your definition that Websters give really matter? I think not.

There is prayer that directed towards God. There is also prayers that is directed to others.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2010

lionroar0 said:
Case is close. Only if one consciously decides to ignore the other valid definitions.

I think we can see pretty clearly who's blind and who's not.

You can

John 9:41 Jesus said to them "if blind ye were, not ever ye had sin.
Yet now ye are saying that 'we are seeing', the sin of ye is remaining".

Reve 3:17 That thou are saying that Rich I am, and I have become rich and not yet one need I am having.
And not are aware that thou are the weight-calloused and forlorn and poor and blind and naked.

YouTube - I can see clearly now the rain has gone - Johnny Nash

Rick Otto · Aug 1, 2010

laconicstudent said:
If you don't like the English language, with its "Godless" definitions, you are perfectly welcome to adopt another, but we are holding this discussion in English, and are going to adhere to the actual meaning of words in English and not redefine them to fit our argument.

But redefinition of english is already rampant. That was the point. Need a clue?

Rick Otto · Aug 1, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
We can ?

I can.
I thought it big of him to admit it.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2010

Rick Otto said:
I can.
I thought it big of him to admit it.

Very humble indeed

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Rotherham) Exodus 10:3 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him--Thus, saith Yahweh, God of the Hebrews, "How long hast thou refused to humble thyself before Me? Let My people go! that they may serve Me".

DD2008 · Aug 1, 2010

lionroar0 said:
Does that include Jehova's witness and Mormons. Who also profess to have faith in Christ?

According to your logic they are Christians. How about oneness pentecostals that deny the Trinity? They also profess to have faith in Christ but yet deny the Trinity. According to your logic they are also Christian.

I guess if one can deny the basic tenents of Christianity but profess to have faith in Christ then, one still a Christian. That is according to your logic.

One who is a Christian has faith in Christ. He doesn't just say he has faith in Christ. He actually has it. Faith is a God given gift and is a sure sign of election.

Searching_for_Christ · Aug 1, 2010

lionroar0 said:
There is also prayers that is directed to others.

You need to show me where. Forgive me for not just taking your word on it.

laconicstudent · Aug 1, 2010

Rick Otto said:
But redefinition of english is already rampant. That was the point. Need a clue?

You are welcome to raise the issue with Bible translators at any time. Personally, I feel that they, as professionals, know what they are doing and wouldn't appreciate being corrected by amateurs from a webforum.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 1, 2010

laconicstudent said:
You are welcome to raise the issue with Bible translators at any time. Personally, I feel that they, as professionals, know what they are doing and wouldn't appreciate being corrected by amateurs from a webforum.

Got any idea who those professional ones are?

Christian Forums - View Single Post - Nicene Creed -- what's yer beef?

Rick Otto · Aug 1, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Got any idea who those professional ones are?

They ain't the perpetrators.

Jeshu · Aug 3, 2010

lionroar0 said:
There is prayer that directed towards God. There is also prayers that is directed to others.

True???

Romans 8:26-27

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

or failing that,
Which prayer would be Truest/Safest/Answered/ Heard/Understood/Seen/Spoken/Felt/Died for/Broken\Foreseen\Saved\ and which one is not?

For if One is Above and the other below why ask below?

(who else would you want?

)

1 John 5:1-15

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is the one who came by water and bloodJesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: theWe accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears uswhatever we askwe know that we have what we asked of him.

Polycarp1 · Aug 3, 2010

I am just wondering if the Christians who reject seeking the intercession of saints as idolatrous, when a fellow Christian asks them to pray for him/her, do they rebuke them as idolators?

Searching_for_Christ · Aug 3, 2010

Polycarp1 said:
I am just wondering if the Christians who reject seeking the intercession of saints as idolatrous, when a fellow Christian asks them to pray for him/her, do they rebuke them as idolators?

Its not the same thing.

and here is why, lets say you are suffering from depression
"Oh St. Dymphna patron saint of depression, I pray that you will make interecession for me!"

"Hey bud..will you join me in prayer for my problem?"

^^^^^^differences I see...yes I do.

Polycarp1 · Aug 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Its not the same thing.

and here is why, lets say you are suffering from depression
"Oh St. Dymphna patron saint of depression, I pray that you will make interecession for me!"

"Hey bud..will you join me in prayer for my problem?"

^^^^^^differences I see...yes I do.

The difference is in tone, not in content.

"Mr. & Mrs. Raymond Luxuryyacht request the honor of your presence at the marriage of their daughter...." and "Hey, bud, wanna catch a pizza and a coupla beers?" are both invitations, just set in different tones. Your two examples are both requests for intercessory prayer.

Let me note that the cultus of saints as practiced by some Catholics (and a few others) is admittedly susceptible to abuse. The only legitimate prayer to a saint is one asking for his/her intercession before God -- and it makes no difference whether that saint is in heaven or the next pew. It's very easy for someone to erect a saint in heaven into a godlet deserving of worship in his own mind. That does not preclude the proper use of seeking intercession.

For me, almost all my prayer (~80%) is addressed to "God", by which I usually mean either the Father or the Holy Trinity, about 20% to Jesus. I almost never engage in prayer to saints. But that is my personal piety, and I feel compelled to defend the twenty-centuries-old tradition of seeking the intercession of the saints at rest.

Searching_for_Christ · Aug 3, 2010

Yeah but I'm not praying to my bud for prayer..I have to PRAY to a saint..in order to get his or her supposed help.

Jeshu · Aug 3, 2010

Polycarp1 said:
I am just wondering if the Christians who reject seeking the intercession of saints as idolatrous, when a fellow Christian asks them to pray for him/her, do they rebuke them as idolators?

No way would I think like that.

Sure you can ask a Saint -to be free is to be free - they hear and understand perfectly well and know what is going down here.

Rather our God must be first and last for why would we let a saint replace His position - such is not right surely? Yet in Him - the saints are us all - The Church of All Ages!

I'm one of the least down here but I'll pray for you or anyone who needs loving truth to help them. Yet we want The Holy Spirit doing the praying - for no saint can say anything much worthwhile without Him. (a bit like our dear Pope waving sincerely at all those hurting souls with a sad smile on his face - or can we do better than that?

I say yes do let us call upon The Son, and The Father to join The Bride with all Her Children - so our Heavenly Father All in All in S(s)pirit to B(b)e.

Peace.

lionroar0 · Aug 3, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Yeah but I'm not praying to my bud for prayer..I have to PRAY to a saint..in order to get his or her supposed help.

When u asked ur bud to pray for you. You are praying to him.

That is what prayer means. It means to ask.

What about Hyperdulia?

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