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Whale Fossils Discovered High Up In Andes Mountains

Colter

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When the elite priest class redacted and rewrote Genesis, it was they who made "up fanciful and complex theories they themselves cannot break down to any for of rational explanation". They lived in an enchanted age of mystery and wonder. They saw God in EVERYTHING, every natural occurrence of life. The authors of scripture were holy men, they were not historians or philosophers. They frankly made NO claim of divine inspiration. Later generations of the priest class declared the scripture to be an "authority".
 
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Meowzltov

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You are definitely implying that views such as evolution or a local flood as history are atheist views. That would mean those that hold them are atheists, which would include me. Basically your premise is a mistake -- they are not atheist views: the majority holding these views are not atheists.

Scholars, whether they are atheist, Christian, or Buddhist, use their expertise to be as accurate as possible. They do not "lie." Lying means deliberate deception. There is none of that going on. Are honest mistakes sometimes made? Yes. However, you are pretty safe if you stay with the consensus of scholars and shy away from those with eccentric views.

I also have no problem with saying that the Bible is the word of God. God chose to use many, many forms of literature in order to teach faith and morals and the way of salvation. This includes histories, letters, prose, poetry, apocolyptic literature, genealogies, myth, legal documents, proverbs, parables, and legends.

Although we may not be able to parse out all that is history verses myth in the legend of the flood, we CAN know that it was a local flood based on
1. geology
2. basic reasoning
For example, if there was a global flood, we would expect to see a layer of recent sediment at the same level around the world. It simply doesn't exist. Also, basic reasoning unravels core elements of the Noah story. For example, given the specifications of the size of the boat, it could not hold all the species of animals, birds, and insects, much less food for them, even less contain their waste products.

Noah is a teaching story about God and sin. No matter how loving Jesus and the NT God is, we can never forget that God does not tolerate sin, and that there are consequences that bite.

There is also a message in the tale for modern man, interestingly enough. If the LORD cared enough for each species to preserve it from destruction, whoa unto humanity for every species we drive into extinction.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Again - it doesn't seem to me like you are really seeking anything. It seems that you have your mind made up.

But, if you are really seeking, and the Lord does something drastic to open your eyes to the truth, perhaps I'll see you on the other side of this life.

I wish you well with your quest for truth.
 
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Colter

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Thanks Marvin, I hope one day you will be set free yourself from the blindness of the scripture fetish. There's a whole new world of facts outside of the Bible bubble.
 
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OzSpen

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That same Psalm says that the earth doesn't move, so forgive me for not taking it 100% literally. That said, I admit it's quite possible that some mountains were submerged.

Strathos,

It was never meant to be taken literally because it is poetry.

Do you refer to Psalm 104:5?

  • 'He set the earth on its foundations;
    it can never be moved' (NIV).
  • 'He set the earth on its foundations,
    so that it should never be moved' (ESV).
  • 'You set the earth on its foundations,
    so that it shall never be shaken' (NRSV).

Where in this Psalm does it state that 'the earth doesn't move', as in my house that is on a fixed foundation that doesn't rotate around the suburb.

It is possible that something can 'never be moved/shaken' and still be operating in the path of rotation that God designed. The earth cannot be moved in its rotation around the sun.

The Scriptures state that ALL mountains were covered. I provided the evidence in #108.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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There are mountains in the Black Sea that were covered when the basin flooded, so that makes sense.

The whole world, including the highest mountain was covered by water in Noah's flood.

That was caused by the power of Almighty God.

Leave this Lord God out of the question and we get all kinds of rationalisations.
 
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gideon123

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"The Scriptures state that ALL mountains were covered. I provided the evidence in #108."

No ... I'm sorry. But the scriptures do not say that. That is a generalization, a huge step of interpretation that the Bible never said. You simply assumed it. In science, we cannot make those kinds of assumptions. Neither should you. Genesis says this ...

"8 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered."

But who told the translator to use the word Earth ... as in Planet Earth? In Noah's days, such an idea did not exist. There was no idea of a planet. Noah probably believed the world was a flat plate, with seas, rivers and mountains. And he had no knowledge of a spherical Earth. In fact, he had no knowledge that China, or South America, even existed.

The Bible translator happened to write the word "Earth" in Genesis. And you assumed that it meant 'planet Earth'.

Genesis could be properly translated ...

8 The waters rose and increased greatly on the World, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the World, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered."

There is nothing wrong with this second translation. It is probably more correct. And it means that Noah's world - the world he knew and the World that he lived in - suffered a huge inundation. But that does not mean that the Andes or rhe Himalayas were covered in water. There is no evidence that the entire planet was ever submerged.

Dont leap to conclusions. Look instead to what the Bible is actually saying. But no more.

Blessings!!
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
There are mountains in the Black Sea that were covered when the basin flooded, so that makes sense.

 
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The Barbarian

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Strathos,

It was never meant to be taken literally because it is poetry.

So it's literal, unless it isn't?

The Earth is continuously moved. And of course, it's periodically shaken. Of course, like the 6 days of creation are poetic.

It is possible that something can 'never be moved/shaken' and still be operating in the path of rotation that God designed.

NASA scientists using data from the Indonesian earthquake calculated it affected Earth's rotation, decreased the length of day, slightly changed the planet's shape, and shifted the North Pole by centimeters. The earthquake that created the huge tsunami also changed the Earth's rotation.
News | NASA Details Earthquake Effects on the Earth


The earth cannot be moved in its rotation around the sun.

The Earth does not rotate around the Sun.

The Scriptures state that ALL mountains were covered.

Actually, it doesn't say all the mountains were covered.

Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

In the "eretz" (which can mean "my land", a nation, "hereabouts", "ground", etc. anything lower than fifteen cubits was covered.

 
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Strathos

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Look at how you interpreted that passage to not mean exactly what it literally states.

Now do the same to the parts about the flood.
 
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Isaiah60

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It was atheists who denied the Flood. Trace the history. The entire theory of evolution is atheistic. But I'll be content with Romans chapter 14 in this case.

God is not slow, clumsy or weak. If Genesis records God creating everything in just 6 days then why should we doubt God? Theistic evolution to me is like the gateway drug to apostasy. I just don't see where its done any believer in this view any good. Seems like theistic evolutionists place their trust in man over God.

Dr.Pasteur proved biological evolution could never happen, and this is what is taught in micro-biology class in medical school. If we know evolution never happened in biology, then why are we accepting a theory from evolutionists in geology?
 
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The Barbarian

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The entire theory of evolution is atheistic.

You're wrong about that. Really, really wrong. Darwin, for example, suggested in his book that God created the first living things. Would you like me to show you?

God is not slow, clumsy or weak.

God is a good deal more powerful and wise than YE creationists would like Him to be. Engineers are starting to realize that evolutionary processes are more effective and efficient than design when addressing complicated problems. God wins again.

If Genesis records God creating everything in just 6 days

If you let the text interpret itself, you find that the "6 days" are not a literal history. Would you like me to show you that? It seems to me that YE creastionists put more trust in man than they do in God.

Dr.Pasteur proved biological evolution could never happen,

No, he accepted evolution. He proved that spontaneous generation (which is not part of evolutionary theory) was not possible. Would you like me to show you that?
 
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Isaiah60

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If you let the text interpret itself, you find that the "6 days" are not a literal history. Would you like me to show you that? It seems to me that YE creastionists put more trust in man than they do in God.
Don't bother wasting your time and effort in attempts to deluge me. Here you are trying to say that the Hebrew word yom means thousands of years or maybe even millions. The larger the number you use the more embarrassing so lets stick with the smaller duration of time for the sake of being reasonable.

The same Hebrew used in the days of Genesis is also used in the 4th Commandment. Clearly both times they are used to describe creation. So if you think the Hebrew yom justifies long ages then you also believe that the Jews were commanded to work 6-thousand years and then take a 1-thousand year Sabbath. So the long age view is not convincing as well as being absurd, even desperate.
 
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The Barbarian

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Don't bother wasting your time and effort in attempts to deluge me. Here you are trying to say that the Hebrew word yom means thousands of years or maybe even millions.

Or something else, like a category of creation "in the day the Lord created the world." As the early Christians like Augustine thought.

The same Hebrew used in the days of Genesis is also used in the 4th Commandment. Clearly both times they are used to describe creation.

I don't think that a second mention of a parable in scripture, means that it's converted to a literal history. How do you figure that?

So if you think the Hebrew yom justifies long ages

I think, as most Christians do, that it means a category of creation. It's figurative, not literal.
 
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Colter

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The flood myth was a genealogical device of the Israelites who sought to trace their bloodlines back to Adam of Mesopotamian lore whom they assumed was the first human.


The old, evolved earth was already populated and fallen when Adam and Eve arrived.
 
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OzSpen

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Look at how you interpreted that passage to not mean exactly what it literally states.

Now do the same to the parts about the flood.

Strathos,

Poetry is not the same genre as narrative. We can't interpret poetry literally.

Noah's flood is narrative and NOT poetry. How do I know? Genesis 6-8 discusses literal data including places like Mt Ararat, items such as: 'so make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out' (Gen 6: 19 NIV); measurement in cubits; proper names such as Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth; a human timeline: 'By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth' (Gen 8:13 NIV), etc.

Please learn to know the difference between hermeneutics of poetry and narrative.

Oz
 
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The Barbarian

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Given the way it's gone for you so far, it probably makes sense to bail out. Let us know when you're interested in a serious discussion.
 
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The Barbarian

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Noah's flood is narrative and NOT poetry. How do I know? Genesis 6-8 discusses literal data including places like Mt Ararat,

It doesn't include Mt. Ararat. You might want to read it again. Hint: what is the etymology of "Ararat?"
 
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