Whaddaya think?

[Rick Otto]

Does this passage dispense with the notion of Apostolic Succession holding a frranchise license on God-given truth?

Luke:9:46: Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
47: And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48: And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
49: And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

 

[Elderone]

Absolutely.

Luke 9:50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Here is how Matthew Henry explains this passage:

"Forbid him not (#Lu 9:50), but rather encourage him, for he is carrying on the same design that you are, though, for reasons best known to himself, he does not follow with you; and he will meet you in the same end, though he does not accompany you in the same way. You do well to do as you do, but it does not therefore follow that he does ill to do as he does, and that you do well to put him under an interdict, for he that is not against us is for us, and therefore ought to be countenanced by us."

Jesus brought up the same point in Mark.

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Those who "claim" to have the franchise on truth are interested in their own glory, not God's. Beware of them.

 

[cygnusx1]

the passage that Roman Catholics post to declare ongoing Apostolic succession is Acts 1

Matthias Replaces Judas

12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, a distance of half a mile.[c] 13 When they arrived, they went to the upstairs room of the house where they were staying.

Here are the names of those who were present: Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon (the Zealot), and Judas (son of James). 14 They all met together and were constantly united in prayer, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus.
15 During this time, when about 120 believers[d] were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them. 16 “Brothers,” he said, “the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David. 17 Judas was one of us and shared in the ministry with us.”
18 (Judas had bought a field with the money he received for his treachery. Falling headfirst there, his body split open, spilling out all his intestines. 19 The news of his death spread to all the people of Jerusalem, and they gave the place the Aramaic name Akeldama, which means “Field of Blood.”)
20 Peter continued, “This was written in the book of Psalms, where it says, ‘Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.’ It also says, ‘Let someone else take his position.’[e]
21 “So now we must choose a replacement for Judas from among the men who were with us the entire time we were traveling with the Lord Jesus—22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus’ resurrection.” 23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they all prayed, “O Lord, you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25 as an apostle to replace Judas in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven.

I don't think I would wish to belong to a Church that makes a replacement for Judas one of the marks of "orthodoxy" .

 

[edie19]

I don't think I would wish to belong to a Church that makes a replacement for Judas one of the marks of "orthodoxy" .

Now see, I pretty much understand replacing Judas - there were 12 originally so there should be 12 after Judas' death. My issue with replacing Judas in Acts 1 is that they chose Matthias by casting lots! Here, lets draw straws and see who gets the short one???

I'm the first to admit I might be wrong, but IMHO the "correct" 12th apostle was Paul - after all, he was chosen by God.

edie

 

[Rick Otto]

I felt led to go to General Theology awhile ago, and it seemed like I was pretty much alone for awhile, but Augustine Was A Calvinist showed up and caught one of 'them' in a corner, showin' em up pretty good for what I woulda guessed to be moderatable behavior.
I reported Augie's post rather than the 'bad guy's, because Augies defined the problem.

Now I haven't seen or heard from Augie for awhile, but meanwhile, CCWoody has engaged the worst (IMHO) offender(s).

There was a group who felt offended, but I thought it was mostly whining until I actualy spent some time in GT. And I actualy LIKE these guys personaly, from what I read in the fellowship thread over there, but I have some warnings for posts that at worst "in kind" (again, IMHO).

Drawng straws does nothingto enhance Peter's presumed authority, other than it was his suggestion?
I like the Paul is 12th idea, but I'm not convinced.
And replacing Judas simply to maintain "12" seems a bit arbitrary. As if "12" was a magic number.

Everbody knows 3 is The Magic Number.

 

[arunma]

Regarding our blessed Apostle Paul, let us remember that Apostleship was not relegated to the Twelve. The Bible seems to indicate that such men as Barnabas were also Apostles. I admit that the idea of viewing Paul as the replacement for Judas is a theologically very attractive idea. But it seems to me that such an important detail would not have been left out by Saint Luke. Besides this, it brings up the unhappy question of where this places Barnabas. Is he Apostle number 13? My initial assumption would be that Paul was commissioned by Christ to preach the Gospel, bear witness to the resurrection, and write Scripture, but not to take the place of one of the Twelve.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the issue, and of all the brothers and sisters on this forum, I am likely the least theologically educated. Perhaps the idea of Paul as a 12th Apostle is worthy of more consideration, and maybe we should explore that further on this thread.

Those who "claim" to have the franchise on truth are interested in their own glory, not God's. Beware of them.

I am not one who is taken to random Catholic-bashing, but this does seem to fit the description of the Catholic Church. I took note of this during the Da Vinci Code controversy. Evangelical Christians and Catholics alike were in uproar over the book and movie, but for different reasons. Evangelicals hated this franchise because it blasphemes Jesus and makes a mockery of the Gospel. Catholics, on the other hand, seemed to be concerned that the book and film gave the Catholic Church a bad name. The desecration of the person and work of Christ seemed to be a secondary issue to them. I do think that the Catholic Church places too much importance on its own name, and not enough importance on the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[cygnusx1]

I have no doubt Matthias replaced Judas , and the casting of Lots is a Biblical practice , even the Lot is of the Lord .... how different the book of Jonah would have been if God didn't control the Lots

ten men , or was it 25 men later the storm stopped , they eventually had their man !!!


but , the very concept of building a Church on a replacement for Judas .... is very strange , man of sin and all that.

 

[theFijian]

Now see, I pretty much understand replacing Judas - there were 12 originally so there should be 12 after Judas' death. My issue with replacing Judas in Acts 1 is that they chose Matthias by casting lots! Here, lets draw straws and see who gets the short one???

I'm the first to admit I might be wrong, but IMHO the "correct" 12th apostle was Paul - after all, he was chosen by God.

edie

I think the key here is that the disciples presented two possible replacements for Judas before God and he chose between them. The disciples werent able to choose between Joseph and Matthias so they left the decision for God to make in an unequicoval manner. I'd imagine that Joseph took the outcome in good grace too

 

[Rick Otto]

Castin' lots I got no problem with, it's just that it was an opportunity for an authority figure to make an appointment, and that opportunity was passed on by the "pre-eminent"(Romanese) Apostle.

Pre-eminance sounds too much like "more equal" to me.

Maybe I shoulda asked a priest before I read "Animal Farm"?

 

[cygnusx1]

Castin' lots I got no problem with, it's just that it was an opportunity for an authority figure to make an appointment, and that opportunity was passed on by the "pre-eminent"(Romanese) Apostle.

Pre-eminance sounds too much like "more equal" to me.

Maybe I shoulda asked a priest before I read "Animal Farm"?

I once asked this priest to come into my house , we spoke for a short while , I said shall we pray , I was just about to pray when he took over ............ never again!!!

 

[Rick Otto]

I remember the day the Catholic priest came to blass our house.
I was being bound to a tree by my contemporaries in the hood (it was my turn to play Indian in Cowboys & ~).

I remember when I was in 2nd grade, kneeling at the communion rail at the end of the 6-heads row of my family. The parish priest came to me first, stopped, and passed me by.
I did a double-take as I watched him do the same to my entire family.
My father was outraged! He jumped up from the rail and ordered us out of the church.

I found out later the priest was p.o.'d at dad because dad had decided to send us to Public School for a year, so we could save for a bigger house.

I aced 3rd grade with my eyes closed. Even then I could not believe how stupid Public School was. And THAT was after me being p,o,'d at my parents & 2nd grade teacher for jivin' me about my grades. I had let 'em slip, caught hell, and worked my little brain to the bone to bring 'em back up. Instead of praisin' me, they told me I could "do better". I decide right then & there that even if I could, I WOULDn't for the likes of THEM!

In 7th grade, the principle, Sister "X", "invited" me into her office one day, making me skip recess to tell me how much I & my friends, were admired & followed by the other children. Then she launched into recruiting me to snitch, citing "We're worried about our kids and just want to know we can rely on you to let us know if their getting into serious trouble." She told me she knew about two of my buddies smokin' ciggarrettes in the cornfield next to the school ( I didn't know that!)

Anyway, it began to stew me, the more I thought about it. Finaly, I decided to make some buttons. I had already collected bunch, but didn't know what I wanted to do with 'em. She had repeated the word "leaders" in dexcribing me & my friends, so I put "Leader" on the buttons & passed 'em out to my buds.

Must realy [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed her off, 'cause I got yanked 1st thing in the morning and my parents were called. I had no clue what for. They made me get a psychiatric evaluation.

Boy is THAT a story!
But it backfired for 'em. The shrink liked me so much, he asked me if he could tell his class about me. Then he told my mom not to worry too much about me, just to be aware that I "had the emotional responses of a 21yr old." That kinda freaked me out. I didn't realy know what to do with it, but I quickly saw that I wasn't that different from my friends and I began to suspect TV
was complicit in my "loss of innocence".

"Survivng Rome" my next book...

 

[cygnusx1]

I remember the day the Catholic priest came to blass our house.
I was being bound to a tree by my contemporaries in the hood (it was my turn to play Indian in Cowboys & ~).

I remember when I was in 2nd grade, kneeling at the communion rail at the end of the 6-heads row of my family. The parish priest came to me first, stopped, and passed me by.
I did a double-take as I watched him do the same to my entire family.
My father was outraged! He jumped up from the rail and ordered us out of the church.

I found out later the priest was p.o.'d at dad because dad had decided to send us to Public School for a year, so we could save for a bigger house.

I aced 3rd grade with my eyes closed. Even then I could not believe how stupid Public School was. And THAT was after me being p,o,'d at my parents & 2nd grade teacher for jivin' me about my grades. I had let 'em slip, caught hell, and worked my little brain to the bone to bring 'em back up. Instead of praisin' me, they told me I could "do better". I decide right then & there that even if I could, I WOULDn't for the likes of THEM!

In 7th grade, the principle, Sister "X", "invited" me into her office one day, making me skip recess to tell me how much I & my friends, were admired & followed by the other children. Then she launched into recruiting me to snitch, citing "We're worried about our kids and just want to know we can rely on you to let us know if their getting into serious trouble." She told me she knew about two of my buddies smokin' ciggarrettes in the cornfield next to the school ( I didn't know that!)

Anyway, it began to stew me, the more I thought about it. Finaly, I decided to make some buttons. I had already collected bunch, but didn't know what I wanted to do with 'em. She had repeated the word "leaders" in dexcribing me & my friends, so I put "Leader" on the buttons & passed 'em out to my buds.

Must realy [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed her off, 'cause I got yanked 1st thing in the morning and my parents were called. I had no clue what for. They made me get a psychiatric evaluation.

Boy is THAT a story!
But it backfired for 'em. The shrink liked me so much, he asked me if he could tell his class about me. Then he told my mom not to worry too much about me, just to be aware that I "had the emotional responses of a 21yr old." That kinda freaked me out. I didn't realy know what to do with it, but I quickly saw that I wasn't that different from my friends and I began to suspect TV
was complicit in my "loss of innocence".

"Survivng Rome" my next book...

I worked with guy who married a Roman Catholic , he had to become one , he was catechised (sounds painful) and he was told , "that's it , once you are a Catholic you are one forever"

he also told me what his priest thought of Protestant Christians , and his priest described them as a bunch living in "tin pot tabernacles" .......... unlike the splendour of Rome !


now doesn't that make me feel great ... you betcha!!

 

[Rick Otto]

A steady diet of splendor will leave you no fashion options other than gaudy robes to dignify an obscene girth.

My mom became Catholic to marry my dad, & it p.o.'d her mom who used to tell like to me how I was related to Oliver Cromwell. Made for an interesting childhood.

 

[edie19]

I worked with guy who married a Roman Catholic , he had to become one , he was catechised (sounds painful) and he was told , "that's it , once you are a Catholic you are one forever"

My husband, who is 54 and hasn't essentially hasn't attended a Catholic church since high school, would say the same thing. He also thinks Luther is a heretic - of course he hasn't studied Luther, he's just basing it on what he heard growing up.

 

[Rick Otto]

Wait, don't tell me... from Cathiholics, right?

 

[edie19]

Wait, don't tell me... from Cathiholics, right?

Sorry - I wasn't clear in my post, yes he was raised Catholic - just hasn't practiced since high school (a Catholic high school at that). Oh, and when I point out to him the differences between Scripture and RCC doctrine - I'm Catholic bashing (but that's a whole other topic)