• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

"We're Not Out To Hurt Anybody."

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sidhe

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Baudelaire was a big influence on Aleister Crowley, actually, and had some connections to occult groups in France according to legend. So he's probably not someone to quote concerning such things...as what he meant was possibly a bit different than what people want him to mean.
 
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Druweid

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I'll tell everyone right now the first thing that can be done to help eliminate ignorance about contemporary peoples and
religions:

PLEASE, stop revisiting questionable and inconclusive histories!

And so that there is no question as to what I'm talking about, I'll specify some of the issues. Any are welcome to use these as the start of a new thread if it is felt that further discussion is warranted.

Human Sacrifices (Druidic or otherwise)
It is generally understood that human and/or ritual sacrifice was commonly practiced in ancient times by a wide variety of cultures. It would seem that such a practice was born more of superstition than formal religious doctrine, since the religious text of every major religion, regardless of it's antiquity, specifically condemns human sacrifice. Within the Druidic culture, or Paleopaganism in general, we have no such texts for reference. There are numerous second-hand accounts, many of which contain verifiable errors. Modern archeology presumes ritual deaths for a small number of remains found (The Lindow Man, The Tollund Man, and about a dozen or so others), which is hardly impressive given hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years of history. Of the "evidence" which exists, nothing confirms that Druids recommended or encouraged sacrifice, only that their participation may have been considered necessary. Primary sources of research (with extensive references) can be found here and here. Any who wish to discuss this further, please create a new thread.

Christian / Pagan Persecution
It's no secret that Christians were persecuted to the point of execution, en masse, throughout the time period specified by Secundulus. And yes, from the rule of Nero, until the "Diocletian Persecution," at least 1,500 (likely only those considered martyrs), and as many as 100,000 (possibly exaggerated, but probably more accurate than 1,500) Christians were executed. Most sources seem to agree that an accurate accounting simply is not possible. Reference here: Persecution of Early Christians. But THEN, Constantine I came into power, and thus began the time period of Pagan persecution. From the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D., to the Massacre of Verden in 782 A.D. during the reign of Charlemagne, there is ample information to sustain that a comparable number of Pagans were persecuted to the point of death. References here and here. Sooooo, everyone has it in their history, everyone disagrees with it now, and if anyone REALLY wants to discuss this further, please create a new thread.

The Crusades
That which was supposed to be a call for assistance to defend the Byzantine empire, quickly grew into a mission of conquest. As I've said time and time again, the Crusades were far less about religion, and far more about wealth, political power, and real estate. No "one" group of persons can rightfully claim persecution from this, as all were guilty of it, and all suffered from it. Please don't even bring this up in this thread again.

The Spanish Inquisition
Simply another politically motivated travesty. One possible reason for the Inquisition presented by historians, "The Inquisition allowed the monarchy to intervene actively in religious affairs, without the interference of the Pope. At the same time, Ferdinand and Isabella's objective was the creation of state machinery that allowed them to maximize their control, thus one priority was to achieve religious unity to promote more centralized political authority" (see here). Also, besides accused witches, the Inquisition targeted Jews, Protestants, Catholics converted from Islam, Lutherans, Gnostic Christians (alumbrados), bigamists, heretics, and people who basically just pi**ed them off. It's a poor example of specific persecution, and a great example of superstitious ignorance.

Once more, to restate the OP;

"What can be done about the ignorance about Pagans and Wiccans in general?"

Kindest regards,
-- Druweid
 
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Billnew

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Again, from "A Brief History of the Druids" By Peter Berresford Ellis, (c) 2002, pp. 152-153



-- Druweid
"The wicker man" I didn't realize it was a Wiccan like cult.

Thought of the day:

If you lick a witch, does she taste like Wiccan?
 
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Steezie

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"In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults alive in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."
Radulph of Caen

"Not only did our troops not shrink from eating dead Turks and Saracens; they also ate dogs!"
Albert of Aix
(Albert of Aaachen, Historia Hierosolimitana: History of the Journey to Jerusalem, trans. Susan B. Edgington, Clarendon Press, 2007, ch. V.29, pg. 375.)

"A terrible famine racked the army in Ma'arra, and placed it in the cruel necessity of feeding itself upon the bodies of the Saracens."
Letter to Pope Urban II
 
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merybast

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Go to the Circle Sanctuary website, click on "Charity Work" and then on "Pagans doing charity work" and you will get a list of some of the Pagan groups involved in this.

OK?
 
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morningstar2651

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AnneSally

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It's easy to love people but not love God.
 
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AnneSally

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This is interesting, because apparently the Romans did confirm that Druids practiced human sacrifices.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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This is interesting, because apparently the Romans did confirm that Druids practiced human sacrifices.
They did not "confirm" it - they claimed it.

Bones don't lie - written accounts do. Especially when they happen to be authored by people who want to justify their conquests by demonizing the enemy and his culture.
 
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Morcova

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This is interesting, because apparently the Romans did confirm that Druids practiced human sacrifices.


The romans claimed it.

The winners in a war usually claim horrific things about the loser to justify a war.

Afterall we see from the Roman arenas they hardly put any value on life, so why would they care about human sacrifices?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The romans claimed it.

The winners in a war usually claim horrific things about the loser to justify a war.

Afterall we see from the Roman arenas they hardly put any value on life, so why would they care about human sacrifices?

The systematic "barbarization" of the Gauls (and Carthago, and the Germanic tribes, and so forth) was the ancient equivalent of today's Orientalism.
 
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Booko

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This is interesting, because apparently the Romans did confirm that Druids practiced human sacrifices.

Modern standards in historical writing are exactly that -- modern.

Ancient histories were often written with a goal in mind, which was to support the prevailing culture.

The Romans were doing exactly that. Everyone who wasn't Roman was a "barbarian" when in fact the cultures they eventually conquered had a civilization of their own.

Not all of the Romans were primitives who smeared themselves with blue woad and deer grease and ate children, no matter what they wrote about it.

To read ancient texts using modern eyes can lead to some pretty absurd results.
 
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morningstar2651

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It's easy to love people but not love God.
Don't forget Matthew 25:34-40

 
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Steezie

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This is interesting, because apparently the Romans did confirm that Druids practiced human sacrifices.
They claimed it.

Human sacrifices DID occur and yes the Druids did sacrifice people, but it wasn't something commonly done. Consider this, you need everyone possible to work, grow food, build homes, defend your village, and produce tools. Why on EARTH would you go on a spree and sacrifice one every day or week? It happened probably once every solar year.

It should be noted that the sacrifice victims were almost always willing and volunteered for their fate, believing they would go on to be with the gods in the afterlife.

Weigh that against the people burned by civil authorities after being convicted of heresy against the church....I think we're still behind
 
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katautumn

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It's easy to love people but not love God.

I think it depends on the person. I don't believe this would be a universal truth. I've known many people personally who had tremendous love for God, but displayed very little compassion and love toward their fellow man.

I think it's actually easier for people to love God than others. It's much easier to love and revere and entity you cannot see, cannot touch and cannot hear with your own ears. People can pick and choose which attributes of God they love. For example, many people say "God is love" and dismiss the passages in the Bible that show that God can actually be a God of wrath, vengeance and destruction.

An analogy would be this - if you were married to a man who commanded everyone in your town to throw their firstborn children into the river so that the town would be absolved of its wickedness, could you still truly love your husband? If not, why? If it is truly easier to love people than God how could you explain why people love God even after knowing that, according to the Bible, He committed some of the greatest atrocities against mankind? Plagues, floods, pestilence - acts of God, not Man.
 
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Druweid

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Greetings!
It's easy to love people but not love God.
My love for people is because of my love for The Divine, just as those of you who would love a brother or sister, no matter what, out of love for your parents.

Blessings,
-- Druweid
 
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AnneSally

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I don't believe that line "God committed the greatest atrocities against mankind," it tends to be trotted out by those who want to ignore why He acted. Therefore, I have no problem still loving God understanding the reasons why He acted in wrath against mankind.

It seems that people don't want to honour and respect God by repenting of their sins so they read the cases where He acted in wrath by punishing evil and sin and blame Him for our own wrong-doing. That's why I said it's easier to love man than it is to love God because man wants to revel in his own rebellion, not have it pointed out by "acts of God." And also, people like to ignore that He gave His own Son to redeem us back to Him.....so if He wasn't loving He could have turned His back on us right from the beginning when we sinned against Him.
 
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