Well...

This would be better suited for the Questions by Non-Christians forum.

I personally have never believed in evolution, I just somehow cannot do it, I know for one i was never always a Christian, God grabbed a hold of me and has done miriculous things for me that would me it impossible to turn my back on.

I strongly believe that God is calling out to you. none of us searches for God, it is because of His love and grace that attracts us.

John 6-43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
6-44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 3-10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3-11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

God is knocking on youre door, all you need to do is recieve him.

Revelations 3-20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

As to what you were saying about the universe, who knows the real truth except God Himself. I never really worried about how our universe was so I personally dont have too much to say about, in the end only God knows.

Maybe instead of analyzing everything(I think youre driving yourself a little nutty doing it lol ) Humble yourself for the Lord and ask Him to give you faith, the bible says that He will reveal Himself. In His own time He will, just be patient.

I will pray for you my friend

helicon said:

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe? But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas. Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to. Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom? To try and think more like a God or a creator? Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this? I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

Hi. Welcome to CF! Believing in evolution and that the world is old as you say is nothing wrong with such.

Christians have many and varied understandings of such things, so never to worry about such.

God indeed gave you a mind and with that He longs for you to seek Him out. It is written, you will find me if you seek me with all your heart soul mind and strength.

I believe that is in the OT, and now of course we have Jesus revealed to us. Same would also apply today (seek me), but what I mean is now we have Jesus revealed in the new testament.

It's not so much as you say, believing or saying Jesus is my Savior, though surely many have come to Christ with those words. It's though something more like or can be, Jesus I commit my life to you, trust you with my life, and desire to follow you and can be many different words, or very few; but just giving an idea of more what it's about.

If you don't feel is true as you said, then not to worry. Surely, until I came to Christ, I never pondered God or such wonderful things that you ponder at all.

I believe God would love that you seek wisdom, if you open the book of proverbs in the old testament, you'll see wisdom spoken about and is very neat. It is wonderful to question God on things, and to want to learn about things is awesome.

I wonder how many other universes there are, and so many things. Of course there is so much we do not know, and if you feel, you can have a peace about it all. Meaning, we do not need to have all the answers, we know we can't, and we know we don't, and we have quite few really when comes to many things.

God would not be troubled that you seek to know and learn of things. He created us with a mind (if you believe that God created us, I mean, as I believe), He made us with minds to learn and question and grow.

If you ever desire to, you can talk to God and tell God anything at all. You can tell God you don't believe He exists, or that you believe He exists, or that why this, and you feel this or that, etc.. Is okay...

You are so kind, and gosh, you have not been offensive in any way, and please feel free to send me a private message anytime, and consider things in your heart and in your mind and bear in mind on this site you will read many many things, and always know that whether a person is a Christian or not a Christian that each one of us is very unique and so if you are troubled by some things you read; bear in mind that what one or even several to many people say doesn't mean that all are the same, for surely we are unique as snowflakes, each person with their understandings of things, believer or not.

take care,
tapero

Thank you, helicon. I admire your approach to truth. I am certain your effort is a very good kind. I hope you never just say anything, without meaning it. Given your refusal to accept a lie in your searching for the creator, I am certain He will bring awareness of Him to you, when He considers you ready. When He first made me aware of Him, my beliefs were rather similar to yours of today.

J.E.B.

Hi Helicon. Your post caught my attention as rather interesting. Let me see if I can address some of your points.

helicon said:

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Click to expand...

In case you're wondering, I too believe that the earth is 4 billion years old; I do not believe that humans are the result of biological evolution. However, I find that debates about creation and evolution are both fruitless and a smokescreen to avoid the deeper question of the sovereignty and lordship of Jesus Christ. If you believe in evolution, then I have no desire to change your mind. On the other hand, I would most definitely commend Jesus Christ to you as the sole means of having any meaningful relationship with God.

helicon said:

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe?

Click to expand...

Good for you. I'm also deeply interested in the origins of the universe. In fact I'm currently working on a PhD in high energy astrophysics, which is a field of research which asks many questions about the origins of the universe. However, might I suggest that you are asking some of the wrong questions. Multiple universes and dimensions are great fodder for sci-fi (and don't get me wrong, I like sci-fi), but in real science there isn't any such thing as multiple dimensions, at least not in the way that the general public understands them. The idea of multiple dimensions is more of a mathematical tool that helps us to make physical predictions. Even the idea of spacetime being "four-dimensional," is pretty much a misnomer. Think of it this way: the universe is essentially defined as everything that exists. It follows from that definition that it doesn't make much sense to talk about multiple universes.

helicon said:

But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas. Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to. Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

Click to expand...

May I ask why you are intimately tie morality to your quest to understand the origins of the universe? Two points here. First, science is basically amoral. Sure, it comes with rules about not falsifying data and such, but science typically isn't used to make decisions about human morality or ethics. You can't have scientific morality without forming a religion around science (which some people do). Secondly, please keep in mind that you're asking rather large questions here which require some rather specialized scientific knowledge. I've taken more physics courses than I can count off hand and I still don't have that great an understanding about the origin of the universe. In fact, most scientists don't. There's no sense driving yourself crazy about this.

helicon said:

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom? To try and think more like a God or a creator?

Click to expand...

Well it's futile to try and think like God except through Christ. As it says,
If you believe in Jesus Christ, then God will shape you in his image so as to think like him.

I'm also curious as to what sort of wisdom you're talking about. Are you talking about scientific knowledge? If so, then there's no short supply of books on the subject. But if you're referring to genuine spiritual wisdom, keep in mind the teachings of God:
All genuine wisdom must begin with God. If it doesn't, then it's just arbitrary metaphysics and will amount to nothing.

helicon said:

Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this?

Click to expand...

I detect that you're concerned about being arrogant and exalting yourself above God. If you were to believe that your understanding of creation was all-surpassing, and did not give thanks to God for it, then this would certainly invite the wrath of God. Most of us think this way most of the time, since humanity is inclined to do evil. But if you behold the works of God and give thanks to him, humbling yourself before him, then this is pleasing to God. Ultimately, God does not discourage us from learning as much as we can. But it is impossible to please him without faith in Jesus Christ. Apart from Christ, everything we do is displeasing to God.

helicon said:

I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Click to expand...

On the contrary, it would be impossible to do this. A mere verbal confession of Christ's lordship is worthless. So instead, I would invite you to consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believe in it of your own will.

helicon said:

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

Nothing you said is rude or offensive. Quite the opposite; this post was quite gracious.

helicon said:

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe? But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas. Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to. Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom? To try and think more like a God or a creator? Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this? I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

Perhaps God is just waiting for you to come to the end of yourself so you can learn of Him.

helicon said:

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe?

Click to expand...

As far as better understanding the origins of the universe, try youtubing Stephen Hawking's lecture, entitled Origin of the Universe. In case you don't know, he's a famous physicist.

As far as how many dimensions there are. Well yes, there is more than one. I mean you know about length, width & height, so that's 3. Plus there's time, so you have 4 already. Current mathematical models show that we live in an 11-dimensional space. Once the Large Hadron Collider is complete in Geneva, top physicists will be able to experiment on extra dimensions and other ideas.

As far as multiple universes, one idea is that we exist in a multiverse. This isn't a scientific theory (ie. gravity, evolution, etc), but a hypothesis, so it's currently being debated among some very intelligent people.

The questions you're posing are some of the toughest questions out there. No one knows the answers, but it's possible we'll have these answers in our lifetimes, which is exciting. I think when we can't understand something, it's human nature to turn towards spirituality/religion. If you're looking for peace of mind, maybe you will find it there or in science.

For a layman's explanation of some of these complex ideas, you can check out physicist Brian Greene's fantastic NOVA episodes, titled The Elegant Universe. You should be able to youtube this also.

My attitude is just to keep learning about the world. There's so much beauty in our universe. Whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist or something else, I personally think we're all very lucky to exist in world where there is so much to be able to appreciate. Best of luck.

ps. I think the Elegent Universe is fun to watch, but Hawking's lecture not so much.

Are you still around Helicon?

If so, I'd be happy to discuss further questions about theistic evolution, a theistic view of the anthropic principle, teleology or similar topics...

Let us know the mic is live, so to say....

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Click to expand...

Yes, well, when the Theory of Evolution presents us with actual macro-evolution, then I might be inclined to give it a serious look. And I'm not talking about speciation, natural selection, or adaptation, but genuine evolution involving the generation of new genetic information - the kind required for the molecules-to-man evolution that Darwin posited.

As far as the Earth's age is concerned, well, if I can believe a God-man died for my sins and then resurrected himself 3 days later, I can believe the literal Genesis account of the World's Creation. Seems odd to embrace one miraculous story as perfectly, literally true in the Bible while rejecting another.

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe?

Click to expand...

Why indeed? Who's to say He didn't make other universes? How would knowing that He did assist you in living your life on this planet, in this universe, today?

But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas.

Click to expand...

Why do you use the word "stranded" to describe your situation? Do you think you ought to be somewhere else?

Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to.

Click to expand...

No, actually, you don't "have to." It is quite possible to live perfectly content without knowing if there are other universes in existence. And even if there was proof positive of other dimensions (which mathematically there seems to be) it would be quite impossible to fully understand or experience being in those other dimensions. Imagine what a two-dimensional person would think of a three-dimensional creature. The 2-D person has no frame of reference from which to comprehend the 3-D world.

Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

Click to expand...

Why does understanding the origins of the Universe require stripping away your morality and logic?

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian

Click to expand...

As far as being a Christian is concerned, you either are or are not. What you are actually saying, then, is that you aren't a Christian. Its "funny" that you put going insane in the same sentence where you declare your agnosticism...

but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom?

Click to expand...

Of course it is. But wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing. Wisdom is knowledge well-applied.

To try and think more like a God or a creator? Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this?

Click to expand...

Yes, you're in over your head. God is infinite; you are finite. This rather limits your ability to understand the Creator.

No, I don't think God would be angry with you trying to understand. He might, though, be bothered by the route your taking to do so.

I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Click to expand...

Saying it and truly believing it are two very different things. No one is asking you to claim faith in the Saviour when you have none.

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

Click to expand...

No apology necessary.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

He is. Always.

Peace to you.

aiki said:

And even if there was proof positive of other dimensions (which mathematically there seems to be) it would be quite impossible to fully understand or experience being in those other dimensions. Imagine what a two-dimensional person would think of a three-dimensional creature. The 2-D person has no frame of reference from which to comprehend the 3-D world.

Click to expand...

Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions, by Edwin A. Abbott, is a great fictional book that addresses this subject. It's about a square (who lives in Flatland) that's visited by a sphere (who lives in Spaceland).

You can search & read this book for free online at books.google.com if you'd like.

Also, they made it into a movie, but I heard it's not as good as the book (isn't this always true ).

Thanks, charcoalpet, for the title. I've been reading Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace." A real brain-bender! He talks at length about how a 2-D person would perceive a 3-D person and, I believe, makes mention of the title you gave. Fascinating, if somewhat arduous, reading.

Peace to you.

Thanks, I'll have to check that out.

The wisdom of God it is....but not the wisdom of man...because King Solomon was the wisest human being ever born but he
lost his walk with God because he went after his wives' gods. It's not a good thing to think we are as God. But God wants us to try
to be holy like Him. He even wants us to be wise and good like Him. Did you know that He created this earth and everything in it for His glory? But He created them for us also....to enjoy. Actually Adam's job was to name all the animals. That must have been awesome!
You're right...it will be too easy for you to say Jesus is your Savior. And to tell you the truth...that won't save you. I must of said that
prayer 6 times before I was really saved. And when I was saved...I didn't even have to say that prayer. Your profession has to come deep within your heart...and your life has to show it. Don't say it if you don't mean it. And rebuke anyone who tells you to pray that prayer when you don't even believe it....because you're lying to yourself if you do. Because the bible says, "Many will say to me on
that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS'" Matthew 7:22-23
Ask God, read the bible, and talk to Christians to help you understand how much sin we have...and how He will forgive us when we believe that His Son died for us...and if you are ready to believe, if you're sorry and your heart cries out to God for forgiveness...then pray and tell Him you want to follow Him and for Him for forgive you.

The universe is sooo vast and awesome that I cannot just act like I don't care it exists. There is a Creator...and if He created the
universe that contains stars so enormous it can swallow up our planet, we should be afraid of Him and glorify Him.
If you are amazed in this small universe...you will be so much more amazed in God. Did you know that He BREATHED the heavens and
the stars into existence?....but He took time to mold and form man. Not even many Christians know that part. YOU are God's awesome
creation. Look at yourself, your eyes, how your brain works, your fingerprints, your feelings, the way you breath, and tell me you
are not amazed.
The bible says that the universe is proof that He is God.
It is not a strange thing that you are seeking to know. There are so much more out there we are seeking to know. God will reveal some of it to us, but not everything. Our brains cannot contain them. We have only begun to understand small ways of how our bodies work. We have only begun to unwrapped the code of DNA.

Seek God with ALL your heart, know what sin is, confess your sin and tell God you will follow Him and have faith in Him.

When you walk with God you will be amazed, and hunger of questions will be satisfied.....and then He will reveal to you things of Heaven...and of Him. It will take an eternity to know Him. Of all creation, He is the most amazing thing I've found so far. I hope and pray that you do too.

helicon said:

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe? But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas. Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to. Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom? To try and think more like a God or a creator? Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this? I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

helicon said:

I'll try to explain my current situation, I am not here to preach atheism or anything, I dont even know if I am an atheist/pantheist etc, But I do believe in facts such as evolution and the age of the earth being 4 billion or so years old, it would be hard for me to think otherwise.

Basically Im deeply interested in the origins of the universe, whether there is more then one universe, whether there is more one dimension etc. To put it in a Christian view... why did God have to stop at one universe? But anyway, I'm torturing myself over trying to understand these things and I feel so stranded that all I am is a 'human' stranded on a rock circulating a ball of fiery gas. Ive "broken down" numourously and my definations of right and wrong are warping fast, but... I feel drawn to understanding these things. I "have" to. Who knows, maybe a God is guiding me. But to understand the origins of the universe I regularly strip my human morality and logic to try and see things in more clarity, but to no avail.

I feel I'm almost going insane and I've never been much of a thiest or a Christian but.. in your opinion... is it a "good" thing to be in the search of wisdom? To try and think more like a God or a creator? Am I too in over my head and would the christian God be angry at me for doing this? I feel it would be very easy for me to just.... say Jesus is my savior... but I feel I would be lying and untrue if I did so which seems to me even worse then not saying anything.

Anyway, sorry if I've been rude or offensive somehow in my beliefs, but please understand I am very unsure of many things and I value your opinions on these matters greatly.

May your God be with you.

Click to expand...

The basis of Christian knowledge is the Bible. It contains most of what Christians believe, including indications about the origins of the material universe. It is always a good idea to go to the source to get background knowledge. It takes a lifetime for most to get a good grasp of the things of God, including the 'creation'. I always suggest that one 'drop out' for a year or so and read the bible cover to cover, as a novel; not as a religious book. That will set you up to ask serious questions.

owg

The Gospel (good news) writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John are 4 fingers pointing at a star (Christ). When you see the star, you won't need the fingers anymore.

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him, but we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:9,16b).