Weird beliefs?

Matthias · Oct 6, 2003

Hey there,

I have a question regarding Orthodoxy. As you know, I am converting to Orthodox in 2004 when I have access to a church. Being only about 5 churches means it's hard to find one, especially when only one is full time!

Well, the problem I have is that there's some things in Catholicism I don't agree with, and some things in Orthodox I don't agree with. Like, 75% Orthodoxy I agree with, and about 25% Catholicism I agree with.

For example, I see no reason for a head, like the Pope. However I also believe in Purgatory. So you see, my beliefs come from both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church...

Heck, I also believe in "Animal Heaven", which I understand neither of the two believe or teach.

I know that being a 75/25 ratio, I definitely feel for Orthodoxy more than Catholicism, but I don't know how I will be accepted into Orthodox if I believe in "Animal Heaven", and Purgatory, among other "Catholic" beliefs...

Any advice?

Cheers,

Matthew.

Photini · Oct 6, 2003

Matthias said:
Heck, I also believe in "Animal Heaven", which I understand neither of the two believe or teach.

.

I believe everything in His creation will have it's place, including animals. I'm not sure if there's any specific teaching on this though.

Oblio · Oct 6, 2003

I thought there was some non-doctrinal works on this by Orthodox authors.

Calling Maximus ! (our resident bookworm )

Reader Nilus · Oct 6, 2003

Romans 8:19-23
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Here are two prayers of St Basil the Great about animals.

The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof.
O God, enlarge within us the sense of fellowship with all living things, our brothers the animals to whom Thou gavest the earth as their home in common with us.
We remember with shame that in the past we have exercised the high dominion of man with ruthless cruelty so that the voice of the earth, which should have gone up to Thee in song has been a groan of travail.
May we realize that they live not for us alone, but for themselves and for Thee and that they love the sweetness of life even as we, and serve Thee better in their place than we in ours.

For those, O Lord, the humble beasts, that bear with us the burden and heat of day, and offer their guileless lives for the well-being of mankind; and for the wild creatures, whom Thou hast made wise, strong, and beautiful, we supplicate for them Thy great tenderness of heart, for Thou hast promised to save both man and beast, and great is Thy loving kindness, O Master, Saviour of the world.
Jeff the Finn

Maximus · Oct 6, 2003

I don't see why God would create animals just to dispense with them forever. So, I really like Jeff's post.

As for purgatory, well, I would recommend you read the brief little book, The Future Life According to Orthodox Teaching, by Constantine Cavarnos. It explains things pretty well.

Matthias · Oct 6, 2003

Me too. Thanks Jeff. Thanks all. You've been a big help!

Seraphim Reeves · Oct 7, 2003

Matthew,

I have a question regarding Orthodoxy. As you know, I am converting to Orthodox in 2004 when I have access to a church. Being only about 5 churches means it's hard to find one, especially when only one is full time!

Well, the problem I have is that there's some things in Catholicism I don't agree with, and some things in Orthodox I don't agree with. Like, 75% Orthodoxy I agree with, and about 25% Catholicism I agree with.

While I'd be loath to dissuade someone from converting to Orthodox Christianity, after reading this I'd have to say you need to work out these questions before you make any permanent move. Orthodoxy is not pretty icons, floral smells, or exotic looking clergy - it's a matter to be placed at the top of the "life or death" list, which we all carry around with us in our minds/hearts.

For example, I see no reason for a head, like the Pope. However I also believe in Purgatory. So you see, my beliefs come from both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church...

Well, I'd say be sure what it is you're accepting and rejecting (or think you're accepting/rejecting.)

For example, unbeknownst to many, Orthodox anthropology (including concepts about death) are in some ways very different than those held by westerners, whether Protestant or Roman Catholic. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Orthodoxy, compared to their views, is eminantly Scriptural in it's outlook.

I the Holy Scriptures, the emphasis is not upon our fate immediately after death, but rather on the Last Day - the terrible Day of the Lord, when Christ shall return in Glory, and raise all men from death and judge them - definitively sending them either to "Gehenna", or approving of them and welcoming them into the "New Jerusalem" to dwell with Him forever.

The time leading up to this, is not nearly as emphasized in the Holy Scriptures. Nor is the same sort of finality at all applied to it, as it is in the case of the Last Judgement.

Man was made a spiritual-corporeal creature. For him to exist as a spirit alone is not "natural" to him. This is why death is tragic - though, temporary (which is why the Saviour speaks of it as "sleep" - because we all wake up from sleep, as will the dead when the Lord command them to rise at His Second Coming.)

The disembodied soul exists in a condition where it enjoys a "foretaste" of it's final destiny (which it has yet to inherit) - thus, those who were plunged into the Life giving waters and who received the medicine of healing, and died with contrition will enjoy a foretaste of blessedness. The wicked, sadly, still lacking love and not even able to distract themselves anymore with their amusements, and full of unrepenting remorse, will enjoy a foretaste of their final end too. This condition of "heaven and hell" is similar in many respects to ideas now held by various western Christian groups, but is disimilar enough so as to need this kind of qualification.

In the Church's service books and private prayer rules, are obviously prayers for the reposed. Obviously, the Church recognizes that even the contrite, can somehow be "needful" in death - and that somehow our prayers can assist them. I sincerely believe this is the origin of the Latin doctrine of "purgatory" - the idea that even the dead who die in the love of Christ, can somehow be needful, perhaps because their penitence was not perfect, etc.

St.Mark of Ephesus, who defended the Orthodox faith against the false unia of the Council of Florence, pointed all of these things out to the Roman Catholics when debating various doctrinal matters which the Orthodox took exception to, but which the RC's had adopted as matters of faith (like Purgatory.) While we know that our prayers can help the dead (indeed, it's perhaps not even futile to pray for those who die outside of the Church - though this would be privately done, not liturgically), we have not been told by God exactly how, and we have no knowledge that there is some special place reserved for the "flawed, but generally contrite and graced" seperate from hades/the grave, created especially for their punishment.

To the credit of the RCC, there has been a very subtle attempt to re-create Purgatory into a more "Orthodox palatable" ideal (speaking more in terms of "state" than of a "place", let alone one specifically created for "satisfying the debt in temporal punishment due to personal sins.".) This latter aspec too, is unacceptable from an Orthodox view - for as far as Orthodoxy is concerned, if God forgives you, you are forgiven immediately, not imperfectly. If there is a question of imperfection, an imperfection that may last even into the grave, it is a question of the disposition of a soul, and something that has to be altered in it's heart. Thus, Orthodoxy doesn't accept the older "more traditional" RC doctrine of purgatory, precisely because Orthodox Christianity does not accept the rigid, legalistic idea of God's "necessary justice" which just HAS to be propitiated for with sufferings. Suffering does have a value for sinners, but it is a purely medicinal one - just as God is not in need of anything in other respects, He is not "in need" of vengence upon us for any slights we have shown Him.

Heck, I also believe in "Animal Heaven", which I understand neither of the two believe or teach.

Why do you believe in such?

Seraphim

brewmama · Oct 8, 2003

The thing to do is discuss this with your priest or spiritual father. In order to enter the Church you need to have a full understanding of it, and acceptance of it.

If you reject the pope because you reject authority in the Church, then that is not compatible with Orthodox teachings. I assume this is not what you meant?

Purgatory can be thought of in different ways, such as further sanctification after death. Perhaps the link given above could help. Investigate Orthodox thought on this, and perhaps your thinking will be expanded.

eleni · Oct 9, 2003

Hi Mathias...

Try this link....On purgatory...The teaching on purgatory was elaborated and developed in detail by Thomas Acquinas and finally accepted as dogma at the Council of Florence in 1439.

So I guess before the date given above, there was just ONE and the same teaching .....although there would have been discussion among them about their differences.....which I am sure was sorted out and agreed by all...
helen..

http://www.stjohndc.org/Homilies/9611a.htm

Photini · Oct 9, 2003

The final decisions of the Council of Ferrara-Florence in 1439 about purgatory were not accepted by the Orthodox Church. St. Mark Eugenicus debated very bravely against it.

ChristianOrthodox · Oct 12, 2003

Matthew,

I say you are not for Orthodoxy. Accept the church 100% or none at all. I am dead serious about this, because religions have been started because some could not accept some of the churches teachings. God bless you in your endeavors. In the long run it would be both beneficial for you and for the church.

in Christ,
george

Matthias · Oct 12, 2003

Well, okay. The point is, there's no religion out there that I 100% agree with. I am sure if you take your average Catholic, Methodist, Orthodox, etc, and ask them, very very few of them will agree 100% with everything in their respective churches.

Orthodoxy is the closest I agree with, with about 75% - 85%. If you're saying I have to agree with it 100% or not at all, then I guess I'll have to be religion-less, or just have a personal relationship with God, without going to a building to show my love for Him.

You're going to find it hard to find someone out there who agrees 100% with their religion. Are you saying that I shouldn't convert to Orthodoxy just because there's one or two things I don't agree with, (minor things.), and stay with Catholicism where there is quite a large list of things I don't agree with?

Alfred M · Oct 12, 2003

Matthew,

You are but on the first few miles of a lifelong journey. Let your conversion process simply be a part of that journey. Take it at a pace that provides your heart with the fulfillment of God that you seek. Take all things seriously and develop a quietness in your heart with each question you face.

No man can tell you that the Orthodox Church is not for you, but it may just be a matter of timing. One book that may help you answer a great deal of your questions is a book entitled "Common Ground" by Jordan Bajis. It does an excellent job of explaining the Eastern Church perspectives to those of a western religious mindset. I know it is available through the internet at Light and Life Publishing.

Hang in there Matthew. I had tons of questions I had to deal with before I went through conversion years ago. Just remain patient and prayerful.

In the love of our saviour,

Alfred, chief of sinners

MariaRegina · Oct 12, 2003

Dear Matthias,

My heart goes out to you. I was in a similar situation and I thought that I'd never be able to convert to Orthodoxy because there were some converts to Orthodoxy who were so legalistic. They still have issues to work out. From what I've been reading, almost every convert brings garbage with him, whether former Catholic or former Protestant. These take years to workout. Even cradle Orthodox have erroneous ideas because of the society in which we live. No one is perfect. No one possesses the entire truth. Only in heaven will we see how wrong we were, unless we become like St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. John of Krondstadt who loved everyone whether Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist. These two saints are shining examples to all of us.

If you read Bishop Timothy Ware's book The Orthodox Church, you will find that he is so very gentle with Catholics because he is a convert himself from the Anglican Church and had to come to grips with some of the very same issues you are facing.

My prayers for you, dear friend in Christ,
Elizabeth

ChristianOrthodox · Oct 13, 2003

I am sorry to sound harsh, but our church is based on obedience, humility and the apostolic tradition. The rigidness and strictness of our church has kept us to our roots for about 2000 years.

Your beliefs may be "minor things" to you, but to Orthodoxy its major stuff. Right now you agree with 75-85% of things, later it may be down to 65% and then when you may get into some teachings and find you only really like 50% of the things. If you want to come to Orthodoxy, come with humility realizing you have found a great treasure.

Please do not put yourself above the teachings of the church, it will ruin you, especially one who is thinking about joining.

I really feel strong about this, because I have seen worst case scenarios where people did not fully realize what they were getting into; these case are on the level of clergy members. Please forgive me if you feel I am putting you down in any way.

Take time and research, study and pray and God will show you. But, please do not say I do not accept some teachings. Questioning is fine, as long as you really search and seek with all your heart for what the Lord is telling you.

I am looking for your best interest.

in Christ,
george

Matrona · Oct 13, 2003

Matthias said:
Are you saying that I shouldn't convert to Orthodoxy just because there's one or two things I don't agree with, (minor things.), and stay with Catholicism where there is quite a large list of things I don't agree with?

Matthias, don't give up on Orthodoxy just because there are 1 or 2 things you don't agree with. Make a list of all the issues that are giving you trouble right now, and research them and talk them over with a priest. You might find that your beliefs are in line with Orthodox doctrine after all.

Also, I will add that it is Christological and Trinitarian doctrines that have the status of dogma in the Orthodox Church. Mariological teachings that do not relate to Christ, do not have that status. That is--believing that it is right to call Mary the Theotokos, the Mother of God, is dogma, because calling Mary Theotokos is affirming faith in Christ as one of the Trinity. However, believing the Theotokos was bodily assumed into heaven is not dogma. You don't have to believe it in order to be an Orthodox Christian in good standing. (If I have something wrong, someone please correct me.) If I'm not mistaken, St. John Chrysostom didn't believe the Theotokos was sinless.

Reader Nilus · Oct 13, 2003

It would seem to me that animals in heaven is something the Church has not said anything one way or the other, so it is a personal belief, and as far as purgatory is concerned, there seems to be a purgation process that Orthodox feel happens, and that is about it. Questions remain for someone coming in, and once in some things make more sense. So do not give up.
Jeff the Finn

ChristianOrthodox · Oct 13, 2003

By no means give up, but as I was praying this analogy came into my mind. If you are to marry a person, can you tell her, I only accept 75-85% of you. You are a beautiful person but this other person from a previous relationship has a few better qualitities in certain areas, and I have about 15-25% of her in my heart. You cannot do that. You accept her wholly, flaws and all. You cannot even change her! If she is wrong and you are both earnestly seeking God, God will prevail. But when you start coming in putting your doctrine above the church, its just not good. I say this as a brother, again forgive me if I am offfending anyone.
Please do not rush into this decision. It is critical and if you come to the church, come feeling undeserving. She is the most beautiful Bride of our Lord Jesus Christ, the church is the Body of Christ. It is not something that we can say is "minor." God be with you and pray for me.

Matthias · Oct 14, 2003

Thanks for your responses. I have no intention of not converting to Orthodoxy just because there's a few things I don't agree with. It's maybe not that I don't agree with it, I just view some things a bit differently. But don't worry, I'm definitely converting to Orthodoxy, I just wanted some advice about the things I didn't totally agree with, and if it would be a huge problem. Thanks again everyone!

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