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crimsonleaf

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Are you okay with the possibility that God may have withheld mercy from you?

Although this has been dealt with clearly by others I think it will need a lot of reinforcing before it truly goes in.

Janx - I'm fine with the possibility that God chooses to save me. He chose to save you too, and most of the posters here. But there was a time before He chose me, when I too was an atheist, and Griff is spot on; I didn't care. I could have been the atheist he was talking about.

No atheist will ever say "I wish God had chosen me" because God to them is a folly, imagined by the enfeebled minds of desperate people who can't get through life without the crutch of religion. But any atheist who really does utter the words "I wish God had chosen me" isn't an atheist any longer. God is already at work in him.

Would it have been just for me to die and miss out on all that God offers? Yes, because I chose to turn my back on Him.

Is it just that I have been saved? No, it is merciful.
 
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guuila

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I cannot say Amen enough. Such a breath of fresh air.
 
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crimsonleaf

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He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others. "Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
— Luke 18:9-14
 
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guuila

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I'm reposting this because it was ignored and it's really worthy of consideration:

 
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jdbear

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griff said,
Does God ensure that every single person hears about Jesus Christ and the way of salvation that is only through him?
By name, no, through faith, yes.
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Ro.1:17
Generally speaking, yes, but absolutely, no. There are examples in scripture of both leaders and commoners persecuting and killing Gods prophets. It is a mistake to understand Jesus' harshness in criticising leaders (Jas.3:1) as meaning others won't be judged.

The problem with Gill is he must teach Jesus speaks from human comapassion instead of Divine will to explain away free will, and why?...because Gill (as every Calvinist) has no idea how God can work all things according to His own will despite having allowed man free will. Gills commentary also impresses a false notion that none of the rulers believed in Jesus when scripture teaches many of them did. Gills idea that Jesus simply didn't want the Pharisees to be saved is madness.
Tell me griff,
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" Acts 4:27-28
Did God make anyone kill Jesus? Forget about doctrine. Forget about Arminian or Calvinist beliefs. Forget about Gill. Forget about doctrine altogether. Just think of everything you know about those mentioned from a historical standpoint. The answer becomes crystal. Same for Pharaoh having his heart hardened. Forget about doctrine. So simple it's astonishing.
I must not be a synergist.
People who did come were drawn by a sense of wanting to know God and this of their own free will, but to those who didn't come, He said it was His "oft" desire to gather them, which is no different from His Divine will. Jn.12:32 is related to Jn.12:20.
 
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janxharris

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I take that as a no then.

Why not? Why wouldn't you say to someone you are explaining the Gospel to, 'you might not be one of the ones God decided to save?'
 
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janxharris

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Thanks for your answer. I can see that what I have asked is difficult to answer from what you have said. However, I'll try again but this time in the light of some other scriptures:

Matthew 11:21
Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those that do the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Heberews 3:12-14
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

2 Peter 3:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

So, since it is possible to lose ones faith, or, if not, it is possible that we were not true believers in the first place:

Are you okay with the possibility that God may have withheld mercy from you?
 
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cygnusx1

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Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.

Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.
 
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janxharris

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I'm reposting this because it was ignored and it's really worthy of consideration:

Re: 2 Chronilces 30.

How one reads it all depends on where one puts one's emphasis. It says that some humbled themselves, but also, as you rightly stress, 'The hand of God was on Judah to give them unity of mind...'.

If free will is not existent then what is the point of life?
 
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jdbear

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cygnusx1 said,
Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.
You're right, but when you teach the only thing that can save is how Jesus feels about people. and He says His desire is to save them, and He doesn't save them, Jesus becomes insane.

cygnusx21 said,
Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.
Calvinism is pure fatalism. Calvinism teaches God created the vast majority of people for the purpose of destroying them. I'm going to have a child to kill it. This is insane. This is not the God and Jesus described in the Bible.
 
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Hammster

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Open Theism (the idea that God doesn't know the future) is only allowed to be discussed in Unorthodox Theology.
 
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Arcoe

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Having multiple , even opposing feelings (desires) over a person/s at the same time is far from insanity , it is a Biblical fact.

So God's desires are feelings. And I thought Calvinists did not like feelings or emotions when it came to one's decisions.

Why would God have this feeling to gather them now, when in time past He has already determined He wouldn't gather them?

Your first point is the error of fatalism , or ends without means , pure fatalism.

Tell us how, even though Jesus desired to gather them, the leaders prevented this desire of Jesus. You sure give man a lot of credit for thwarting Jesus' feelings.
 
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Hammster

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Hamm, this wasn't brought up in the discussion.

The way I read the post gave the impression that the member doesn't believe God knows the future. Just trying to be proactive so we don't go down that road.
 
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Arcoe

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The way I read the post gave the impression that the member doesn't believe God knows the future. Just trying to be proactive so we don't go down that road.

If that's your impression, then that's okay. But I surely wouldn't reprimand anyone if it wasn't specifically brought up.
 
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guuila

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I take that as a no then.

Why not? Why wouldn't you say to someone you are explaining the Gospel to, 'you might not be one of the ones God decided to save?'

That was implied by what I said, and it was understood by the atheist, and he didn't give a rip about it. I guess I'll go ahead and remind you, this is true of your theology as well. People are born everyday who are non-elect. Your problem is with election itself, not Calvinism.
 
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guuila

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No. It really depends on how important you think grammar is, and whether or not you're willing to ignore grammar to uphold your free will traditions. You basically read verses like this as "It can't mean what it seems to say, because free will."
 
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guuila

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Calvinism teaches God created the vast majority of people for the purpose of destroying them.

If you're not an Open Theist, I don't know why. Calvinism doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches that. Jesus himself said many enter the broad way of destruction, and God continues to create those people knowing that's where they're headed. Your problem is with orthodox Christianity, not Calvinism. You act as though God is adding names to the Book of Life today. Every synergist I've dealt with on these forums has a problem with election.

Bottom line: If Bob's name isn't written in the Book of Life, and God creates Bob anyway, Bob was created for hell. God could've simply chosen not to create Bob knowing Bob wouldn't believe, but God made him anyway. God made Bob for hell. There's no way around it.
 
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janxharris

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I do not accept that it true of my theology.

Every single person that is born has an equal chance to come to Christ.
 
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