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Your not suggesting that Pilot was forced by God's predestination to do something he would not have otherwise have done are you?
Your not suggesting that Pilot was forced by God's predestination to do something he would not have otherwise have done are you?
There is no way that Herod and Pilot did anything that they would not have done if God was not ensuring the outcome. In other words, they were chosen and in the right place at the right time because they would have done it anyway.
So God scanned the landscape of fallen humanity looking for some people who were so bad they would murder Jesus, and then chose and predestined them on that basis?
If they would have done it anyways, why would God need a positive plan in place such as what came to pass because of His "determinate counsel" and the events "He predestined to occur"
He needn't determine anything or predestine anything if it was going to happen anyways, right?
Acts 4:27-30
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
I honestly can't offer an explanation as to how God controls history. It says that, 'They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen'. Perhaps the emphasis is on the predestined death of Jesus rather than the exact detail of by whom.
What is your view? I have always been baffled by this.
Here's my response.
The text says what it says. Herod and Pilate did what God had planned for them to do. How He did it, we can only speculate. I have an idea, and it's even scripturally based. But to make a definitive declaration would be saying that the only way God could have done it was the way I think it was done. I'm not going there.
It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue. The focus was that Jesus would be crucified.
I think the difficulty is mainly emotional, not intellectual. The words on the page are pretty clear. The question is do you believe them or not?
It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue. The focus was that Jesus would be crucified.
janxharris said:It's is very difficult to get a handle on this issue.
I have no difficulty accepting these verses. Why did you think I did?
I have no difficulty accepting these verses. Why did you think I did?
Here's my response.
The text says what it says. Herod and Pilate did what God had planned for them to do. How He did it, we can only speculate. I have an idea, and it's even scripturally based. But to make a definitive declaration would be saying that the only way God could have done it was the way I think it was done. I'm not going there.
(haven't you said you were against determinism?)
It seems like you and, for example Arcoe, do have difficulty accepting the verses because you seem to not agree with the idea that God would actually determine something to happen. (haven't you said you were against determinism?)
You say with your lips that you accept the verses, but do you have a qualifier at the end of your affirmation? Will you only accept them if they are understood in a specific way that the text doesn't actually say?
Correction: They do believe in determinism. However, they prefer human determinism instead of divine determinism. They'd rather a sinful, fallen, corrupted, finite creature do the determining than a holy, righteous, omnipotent, all-wise and sovereign God do it. They say they don't believe in determinism, but they do.
I fully accept predestination as long as it does not include one's salvation which God would never do.
I have no problem with the fact that it was predetermined that Jesus would be crucified.
Many accept God is sovereign and determines millions of things , but ask about salvation and its off limits , as if God changes .
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6 ESV)
Is that not salvation being spoken of?
Do you have a problem with God determining who would do it?
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