Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

BNR32FAN · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
You might want to interpret Paul in light of Paul.

Rom 3:
9 We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Notice Paul's point is that ALL are under sin. He applies those verses to ALL. Now you can claim that Paul was wrong in applying those verses to ALL, but that what he does. And his point being that justification based upon a person's compliance to law is not going to work. No one would be qualified to be saved. Do you think you would qualify? Good luck with that!

Notice where he goes from there:

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

No reference to a person having to be good or live up to some "law" to qualify. It's free.

Admittedly you and the other salvation by works Christian on this thread don't believe that. But that's the way it is.

Are you saying this from your heart?

bcbsr · May 30, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
What does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20?

Your question was about John 5 not Romans 5. So you tell me, what does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20?

BNR32FAN said:
In Romans 5 all Paul is saying is that we are justified (made right with God) by faith not by works. I have never refuted that at all. In fact I’ve said that several times. This still doesn’t refute the fact the The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit and casts them away to wither then casts them into the fire to be burned. This is a clear example that justification does not guarantee salvation. If justification guaranteed salvation then no one who is in Christ could be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire.

So you take on the gospel is that God condemns those he allegedly justified freely because in your opinion being justified has nothing to do with being saved. So when it comes to salvation you believe in salvation by works, justification meaning nothing to you.

As for you allusion to John 15 the illustration is a vine with branches. Jesus said that those branches that abide ("meno" in greek) in him bear much fruit. "meno" means to take up habitation as in a home. However other branches have not taken up residence in the vine and so don't produce fruit. If you think about how physically that's possible that some branch don't produce fruit, a vinedresser would conclude that while such branches are attached on the surface, they are not inside getting life from the main vine.

Many Christians are so only on the outside, on the surface, but they don't have a living relationship with Christ. They know about Christ, but they don't know him personally. These are simply nominal Christians who are part of the visible church. Those who take up residence in Christ are the invisible church, the real Christians.

Consider the example in Acts versus Galatians
Visible Church: "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Acts 15:5 These were members of the church at Jerusalem.

Invisible Church: Paul spoke of these same people and said, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

Luke, writing as an historian, spoke of their outward identity.
Paul, writing as an apostle, spoke of what they really were.

This goes much along the line of 1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Same principle applies in John 15. They're "in him" but they don't really abide in him, they haven't made their home in Christ. They're just trying this out. Many Christians have really come to believe in Jesus. I would even say salvation by works Christians fit in that category. Such people Jesus will cut off and throw into the fire.

BNR32FAN · May 30, 2019

MDC said:
What guarantees salvation then?

Abiding in Christ does.

Bible Highlighter · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

I will address your response on my question involving David a little later. But do you not believe that a Christian does not lose their salvation when they commit grievous sin like say lying, lusting, or hating? I say this because if you believe that, and preach that to others, then it can give others the wrong impression about sin, and they could easily think that you are teaching a person can sin and still be saved as a way of life (whether you want that to happen or not). Because if a person can be saved while abiding in sin for a short amount of time, and be saved, then how is that different from the person who thinks they can sin 24/7 and be saved? In other words, is there a difference between justifying a little bit of really bad sin vs. say justifying a lot of sin? Did not Adam and Eve send death upon the whole human race by their one sin?

Also, you said that holiness types deny their own sinfulness. Surely you believe one is saved even despite this mysterious sinfulness that you talk about. So I don’t see how the piece of Scripture you use to condemns me applies here. If I got your belief wrong, then please explain it better. So far, the words you have used does not make your belief look innocent. So I am asking you to give me detailed break down of the walk of a believer. What happens when they sin? Do they lose salvation? How long are they in sin for? How often do they sin? What frequency of sin constitutes that they are living a life characterized by sin? These questions need to be answered in order to show that your belief is not justifying sin and or evil.

MDC · May 30, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Abiding in Christ does.

And this answer shows where your faith rest. In yourself! Christ’s death and faithful obedience secured and guaranteed believers salvation by Gods Sovereign grace alone. God preserves His elect through faith. Believers abiding in Christ is just the evidence and reality of this truth. Ones efforts of trying to remain saved by abiding is another way of saying justification comes by works of men. You cannot say Christ alone guarantees your salvation can you?

Bible Highlighter · May 30, 2019

bcbsr said:
Invisible Church: Paul spoke of these same people and said, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

And here is the context that you left out.

3 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Galatians 2:4).

This is what they trying to do to bring them into bondage. They were trying to compel Christians to be circumcised so as to be initially saved. They were spying out their liberty in Christ because the Old Law is no more. Yet, you oddly think there is no New Covenant Laws. Where on Earth you got that idea is beyond me. The apostles after the cross even talk about the importance of the Lord's commands (not the Old Law). John says, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3). Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Let me ask you: Have you ever did a study on God's commands in the New Testament? I mean, have you ever wrote down His commands and just read them and believe them plainly in what they say (Instead of trying to make them fit a particular belief you have)?

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2019

bcbsr said:
First of all "Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39

Not true. This only applied to the disciples and not all believers in the past.
John the Baptist had the Spirit since the womb (Luke 1:15, and Luke 1:41).
1 Peter 1:10-11 says the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets.

10 "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
(1 Peter 1:10-11).

Also, David says to God in Psalm 51 not to take His Holy Spirit from Him.

You said:
The New Covenant was not in effect until Acts chapter 2.

Again, not true. The testament was not in force until after the testator (Jesus) died.

16 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Hebrews 9:16-17).

I mean, why do you think the temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died?
It's because the laws on the animal sacrifices were no longer acceptable and Christ's sacrifice began a New Covenant or a New Testament. There are many other verses that I could go into on this, but this should suffice to show you.

You said:
So while David and Abraham were justified by faith apart from works (which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4), they were not "Christians".

They might not have been called Christians, but unconfessed grievous sin had always caused a separation between God and man. For Adam brought death by his one time sin. Eve was deceived the devil's lie that she could break God's command and not die. This same lie is being pushed by the devil today.

You said:
They were not born of God.

Not true. Galatians 4:29 says that Isaac was born of the Spirit.

28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now." (Galatians 4:28-29).

You said:
So their behavior cannot be compare to those of us who have been born of God (Wesley makes that error), as described in 1John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.).

The key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this "does not commit sin" is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. OSAS proponents think future sin is forgiven them. So while they believe sin may exist on a physical level, they do not think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because they believe Jesus paid for their future sins (When the Bible never says future sin is forgiven us).

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

1 John 3:9 should read like this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."

1 John 3:6 should read like this:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."

This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.

Hebrews 10:26 ties this together. It says:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

Meaning, a person who sets out with the mindset that they are going to sin again, or that they are always going to be in a state of sin of some kind (Thereby justifying that they are going to willfully sin again) is going against 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9.

You said:
In David's situation it simply states 2Sa 12:13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die." No conditions mentioned.

In light of Psalms 51 (which was a confession of David afterwards), he asks for his sins to be forgiven.
So why would he seek forgiveness with the Lord if he understood Nathan as saying that his sins were forgiven on a spiritual level? It makes no sense. So obviously Nathan was referring to his sin being taken away in relation to his physical punishment or destruction. David would not die, but his son would die instead. This does not mean David did not feel like he did not have to seek forgiveness with the Lord over his sins so as to receive forgiveness.

BNR32FAN · May 31, 2019

bcbsr said:
Your question was about John 5 not Romans 5. So you tell me, what does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20?

So you take on the gospel is that God condemns those he allegedly justified freely because in your opinion being justified has nothing to do with being saved. So when it comes to salvation you believe in salvation by works, justification meaning nothing to you.

As for you allusion to John 15 the illustration is a vine with branches. Jesus said that those branches that abide ("meno" in greek) in him bear much fruit. "meno" means to take up habitation as in a home. However other branches have not taken up residence in the vine and so don't produce fruit. If you think about how physically that's possible that some branch don't produce fruit, a vinedresser would conclude that while such branches are attached on the surface, they are not inside getting life from the main vine.

Many Christians are so only on the outside, on the surface, but they don't have a living relationship with Christ. They know about Christ, but they don't know him personally. These are simply nominal Christians who are part of the visible church. Those who take up residence in Christ are the invisible church, the real Christians.

Consider the example in Acts versus Galatians
Visible Church: "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." Acts 15:5 These were members of the church at Jerusalem.

Invisible Church: Paul spoke of these same people and said, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

Luke, writing as an historian, spoke of their outward identity.
Paul, writing as an apostle, spoke of what they really were.

This goes much along the line of 1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Same principle applies in John 15. They're "in him" but they don't really abide in him, they haven't made their home in Christ. They're just trying this out. Many Christians have really come to believe in Jesus. I would even say salvation by works Christians fit in that category. Such people Jesus will cut off and throw into the fire.

Your analogy of how the branch is not inside the vine doesn’t work. First, of all a branch can’t grow to begin with unless it is getting life from the vine. So saying that the vinedresser “would conclude that while such branches are attached on the surface, they are not inside getting life from the main vine” doesn’t make any sense because there would be no branch to begin with if it were not getting life from the main vine. Second, Jesus specifically said The Father cuts off every branch “IN ME”. Jesus says these branches are in fact in Him and you are contradicting what He said to make it fit your beliefs. This is exactly why I changed my beliefs, because I was not willing to cultivate the scriptures to fit my beliefs. I had to accept it for what it actually says and set aside the urge to say this can’t be right because that would contradict eternal security and salvation without works. I let the scriptures do the teaching and tell me what God’s word says, by not changing it around to better suit me in an attempt to protect my pride so I that don’t have to admit I was wrong. To me it was more important to and embrace the truth so as to not mislead others and have a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures.

BNR32FAN · May 31, 2019

MDC said:
And this answer shows where your faith rest. In yourself! Christ’s death and faithful obedience secured and guaranteed believers salvation by Gods Sovereign grace alone. God preserves His elect through faith. Believers abiding in Christ is just the evidence and reality of this truth. Ones efforts of trying to remain saved by abiding is another way of saying justification comes by works of men. You cannot say Christ alone guarantees your salvation can you?

Then perhaps you can explain John 15:1-10 and how The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. Please include why Jesus said remain in Me and anyone who doesn’t remain in Me is cast away to wither then cast into the fire to be burned if they are incapable of failing to remain.

We all have a choice to make. Nobody loses their free will when they become a believer and anyone can turn away from God at any given moment if they so choose to.

MDC · May 31, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
What does Romans 5 have to do with Revelation 20? In Romans 5 all Paul is saying is that we are justified (made right with God) by faith not by works. I have never refuted that at all. In fact I’ve said that several times. This still doesn’t refute the fact the The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit and casts them away to wither then casts them into the fire to be burned. This is a clear example that justification does not guarantee salvation. If justification guaranteed salvation then no one who is in Christ could be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire.

If justification in Christ does not guarantee salvation then we are all without hope. One must be justified before God in order to be saved. The question is how is one justified. And you have proven by what you’ve stated that this comes by mans cooperative efforts. So you do believe man is made right with God by works and not by faith

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
This is because he simply does a phrase search and posts whatever appears to refute what the opposing side says without and discernment or understanding of what the passage is referring to. If he would’ve read the Psalms that Paul was quoting ,Psalms 14:1-7 and Psalms 53:1-6 he would’ve noticed the very first sentence is “the fool says in his heart there is no God” then the fool goes on to say what Paul mentioned in Romans 3. Paul is referring to fools who don’t believe in God. Even after I pointed out the very verses in Psalms he still can’t admit his mistake. Once he’s said something he will defend it at all cost. It’s pointless to even discuss anything with him, his eyes are shut. A person with any kind of biblical discernment would realize Paul’s reference was to everyone before they became a believer. No one is seeking God? Jesus said he who seeks finds. What was He talking about, lost car keys? No one does good?

“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.”
‭‭LUKE‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭NASB

“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,”
‭‭1 TIMOTHY‬ ‭6:18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.”
‭‭3 JOHN‬ ‭1:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 TIMOTHY‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.”
‭‭2 THESSALONIANS‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,”
‭‭HEBREWS‬ ‭10:24‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.”
‭‭TITUS‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you bother her? She has done a good deed to Me.”
‭‭MARK‬ ‭14:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,”
‭‭LUKE‬ ‭6:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭2:5-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Wow. Great post BNR32FAN.
I found the verses to be very useful.

May God bless you today, brother.

BNR32FAN · May 31, 2019

MDC said:
If justification in Christ does not guarantee salvation then we are all without hope. One must be justified before God in order to be saved. The question is how is one justified. And you have proven by what you’ve stated that this comes by mans cooperative efforts. So you do believe man is made right with God by works and not by faith

No I believe we are initially made right with God by faith but the scriptures are clear that God has expectations of His children. Failure to comply with God’s expectations will result in revocation of salvation. Just because we are made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t later be made wrong with Him.

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No I believe we are initially made right with God by faith but the scriptures are clear that God has expectations of His children. Failure to comply with God’s expectations will result in revocation of salvation. Just because we are made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t later be made wrong with Him.

I agree with this, brother.
In the process of Justification: We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without works. No man can do a man directed work to initially get right with the Lord (without God's grace through faith in Christ). We also are ultimately saved by faith in Christ, and trust in His grace, as well. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, do they get right with the Lord by doing another good work? Surely not. They confess of their sins to Jesus be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Grace. How sweet the sound. It did save us initially and it is the faith that we stand upon. This is the process of Justification by which we are saved. It is putting Jesus as the foundation of our faith. We build upon the concrete slab like foundation for a house (Which is Jesus). Without this foundation, the house will crumble. No Jesus. No grace. We cannot be saved without Jesus and His grace. But I see another process (the building itself, works) in the Bible, as the next step or stage in the salvation process called "Sanctification." Sanctification is to live holy and it is to obey the Lord by the power of God working in us. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Jesus abiding in us (Who is life) will do good works or good fruit in our lives. So there should be no bad or evil fruit all the time. There should never be any kind of thinking that says we can sin and still be saved. After being saved by God's grace, the good works done in the believer are technically not the working of their works alone, but they are the work of the Lord done through the believer.

For it is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus; For it was the Lord working in them (under their cooperation with what His Word says - of course). For how can two walk together unless they agree? (Amos 3:3).

Jesus saves both in Justification, and in Sanctification.

Side Note:

Please take note that I believe all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work in the believer.

bcbsr · May 31, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
It’s pointless to even discuss anything with him, his eyes are shut. ‬‬

Back at you. And seeing as you salvation by works Christians have rejected the gospel despite a long discussion over the matter I would think Paul would say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ "Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to others than yourself, and they will listen!"

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2019

bcbsr said:
Back at you. And seeing as you salvation by works Christians have rejected the gospel despite a long discussion over the matter I would think Paul would say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ "Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to others than yourself, and they will listen!"

Lack of understanding takes place when a person does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, " (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

When I talk with most Belief Alone Proponents, they disagree with the words of Jesus and they sometimes say that He really did not speak literally, or those words of Jesus no longer apply to us today (Thus, they are not agreeing with the words of Jesus). They will sometimes say that Jesus was trying to get folks to see the futility in obeying God's laws (When that would make it appear like Jesus was lying). For there is no indication that Jesus summed up His conversations on obedience as a part of life as being a futile effort. Anyways, what verses on the words of Jesus that Belief Alone Proponents disagree with (Which violates 1 Timothy 6:3-4)?

Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.

In addition, we can also tie in the words of Paul in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 about the problem of those who are proud who do not agree with the words of Jesus, etc. in James 4:6.

For James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble.
Obviously a person is humble if they are not justifying sin in some way (Note: Justifying sin would be: Those who say they can sin and still be saved on some level).

Side Note:

Also, stop and think for a moment. Wouldn't God have to agree with a plan of salvation that says believers can sin a little bit or every once in a while and still be saved while doing so in order for that plan of salvation to work? But can God agree with sin? How is that possible? Is not God holy?

Bible Highlighter · May 31, 2019

To all:

From my understanding on what most Belief Alone Proponents have said:

Well, most Belief Alone Proponents believe they cannot stop committing grievous sin on some level, and yet they also say they are always saved by their belief on Jesus. So this means that they are proposing that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Whether that be a little bit of sin in their life or a lot of sin; Note: Belief Alone Proponents differ on how much sin one can commit). They think they are saved when they sin (on some level). This is justifying sin and evil. For if a believer thinks they can look at porn for an hour and be saved while doing so and it is okay because they generally do not do this all the time, then they are justifying sin. They are turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For why bother to say we are sorry, if God paid the price for such sins? It makes no sense. It would be just a paying of lip service that has no real meaning. But the Bible teaches that we confess of our sins, to be forgiven of our sins (See: 1 John 1:9) (Also see Proverbs 28:13).

MDC · May 31, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No I believe we are initially made right with God by faith but the scriptures are clear that God has expectations of His children. Failure to comply with God’s expectations will result in revocation of salvation. Just because we are made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t later be made wrong with Him.

So in other words justification “initially” is through faith apart from your works but then to keep a righteous standing before God you must work to maintain it? Right lol! Just say Christ cannot guarantee your salvation

MDC · May 31, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I agree with this, brother.
In the process of Justification: We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without works. No man can do a man directed work to initially get right with the Lord (without God's grace through faith in Christ). We also are ultimately saved by faith in Christ, and trust in His grace, as well. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, do they get right with the Lord by doing another good work? Surely not. They confess of their sins to Jesus be forgiven of them (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Grace. How sweet the sound. It did save us initially and it is the faith that we stand upon. This is the process of Justification by which we are saved. It is putting Jesus as the foundation of our faith. We build upon the concrete slab like foundation for a house (Which is Jesus). Without this foundation, the house will crumble. No Jesus. No grace. We cannot be saved without Jesus and His grace. But I see another process (the building itself, works) in the Bible, as the next step or stage in the salvation process called "Sanctification." Sanctification is to live holy and it is to obey the Lord by the power of God working in us. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Jesus abiding in us (Who is life) will do good works or good fruit in our lives. So there should be no bad or evil fruit all the time. There should never be any kind of thinking that says we can sin and still be saved. After being saved by God's grace, the good works done in the believer are technically not the working of their works alone, but they are the work of the Lord done through the believer.

For it is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus; For it was the Lord working in them (under their cooperation with what His Word says - of course). For how can two walk together unless they agree? (Amos 3:3).

Jesus saves both in Justification, and in Sanctification.

Side Note:

Please take note that I believe all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity work in the believer.

You have nullified grace altogether with your message of works righteousness. This is no gospel message for guilty sinners

klutedavid · May 31, 2019

bcbsr said:
Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

Salvation by works Christians are those who claim that salvation under the New Covenant is dependent upon one's performance. This as opposed to the gospel of grace whereby "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5 and as such "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 Those sole condition for salvation is faith in Christ and not works. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

To support their unbelief in the gospel of grace salvation-by-works Christians misconstrue verses to justify their unbelief. The following are the fundamental principles they follow to misconstrue verses.

1. Confusing Old Covenant justification with New Covenant justification. Namely confusing the performance based justification in which one gains eternal life by doing works. (i.e. "Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: The man who does these things will live by them." Rom 10:5) with trust based justification. (i.e. "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. .. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."" Rom 10:9,11)

In many cases they'll simply view "justification by law" as restricted to a composite of all the laws of Moses, and they'll come up with a new law, cherry picking certain laws from Moses or adding commands they find in the New Testament to create their own "law" and making salvation contingent upon complying with that law. Some will simply subtract from the law of Moses all regulations they classify as "ceremonial" and make salvation contingent upon complying with those subset of laws. In this they obviously miss the basic concept of what constitutes "justification by law" and the obvious contrast with justification by faith apart from law.

Examples:
Alleging that Rom 2:7 is talking about the gospel of grace whereas it's referring to justification by law. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." The way Paul is constructing his argument in Romans is that from Rom 1:18-3:20 he's talking about justification by law, which includes Rom 2:7. Then he transitions in Romans 3:21 "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Likewise Jesus speaks of justification by law in verses like Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live." Compare that last phrase with what Paul says in Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." The same thing. Jesus is talking about justification by law in that passage just had Paul did in the early chapters of Romans. To those who are not prepared to hear the gospel of grace Paul and Jesus challenge them with justification by the law till they realize that they are not good enough to be saved. In fact in one instance it is written Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Luke 18:18,19 The problem with this person, as it is with salvation-by-works Christians, is he thought he could be good enough to be saved. He didn't understand that his concept of "good" was not good enough. And so Jesus goes on to challenge him with the Law.

2. Appending all commands in the New Testament to Christians with "in order to be saved". Salvation-by-works Christians can't imagine obeying commands for any other reason than salvation being dependent upon it. They think you can't get Christians to do good unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation because that's the way salvation-by-works Christians operate, which is also the case for all trying to be justified by law. "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3:10 This as opposed to the fact that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1 and the reason why is "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Furthermore those operating under fear of condemnation are not only disqualified due to their unbelief, but they are incapable of doing many things required by the law, that they typically will include in their own version of the law, like "love". Love exercised out of the fear of condemnation is not love because "There is no fear in love" 1John 4:18 And love "is not self-seeking" 1Cor 13:5

3. Confusing Cause and Effect. When a person comes to faith in Christ he is given the Holy Spirit to live in him and is born of God. Such things have an inevitable effect on one's behavior. Salvation by works Christians confuse verses which describe such an effect as if they were speaking of the cause of one's salvation rather then describing the behavior of one who has been saved. One contributing factor to them misconstruing verses in such a fashion is the fact that given their unbelief, they are not qualified to be born of God nor receive the Spirit and so find that such verses don't agree with their personal experience, so they misconstrue them as talking about something else.

Examples:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." They listen and follow because they are his sheep. This as opposed to the idea that listening and following him cause them to become his sheep. Likewise John says, "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. " 1John 4:6 They hear what the apostles are teaching because they are of God, which includes understanding the apostles teachings as 1Cor 2:12,14 says "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. .. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (Which is why salvation by works Christians misconstrue scripture on the points)

1John 3:9,10 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

Note that those born of God have a characteristic behavior not due to fear of condemnation, but rather due to the fact that they have been born of God. And that such a characteristic behavior is so inevitable and clearly distinct from that of children of the devil that the two can be distinguished based upon observations of behavior. This as opposed to typical claims of salvation by works Christians that one has to behave a certain way in order to be born of God and thus saved by one's behavior.

Typically they will also point out verses speaking of the converse, namely that those who behaved wickedly end up in hell, like Rev 21:8 "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars— their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." And then they'll make the hypothesis that this proves salvation by works, which of course it doesn't. People don't behave in such a manner because they have been saved and subsequently born of God. So that verse and like verses are simply describing the behavior of those who had not been born of God.

The Fundamental Doctrine

Simply stated, one must believe in Jesus Christ, i.e., the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to be saved.

(Romans 10:9-10, 1 Corinthians 15, e.t.c.)

That is the primary doctrine and is ultimately the very work that God desires of us. The grace of God enables us to believe in Jesus Christ.

Every other Christian doctrine is based on top of that fundamental doctrine.

So are we commanded to love others?

Yes, with the Holy Spirit and with perseverance we can, in fact, bear that fruit.

Are we saved because we love others?

No, because the reason we are saved is only ever due to the fundamental doctrine.

If I once believed in Jesus but then lived a worldly life am I still saved. Of course not.

The sheep hear His voice and the sheep follow His voice in every step.

BNR32FAN · May 31, 2019

MDC said:
So in other words justification “initially” is through faith apart from your works but then to keep a righteous standing before God you must work to maintain it? Right lol! Just say Christ cannot guarantee your salvation

You skipped my reply to you in post #210. Can you please answer those questions?

Ways Salvation-by-Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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