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46AND2

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I'm not conceding anything. You misunderstand me. What I mean by potential integration sites, is that we observe that retroviruses insert themselves in any of millions of different locations when the organism becomes infected. The idea that they just happened to insert themselves in orthologous locations in humans and chimps 200,000 times is utterly absurd.
 
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pshun2404

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Of course there is. Obviously, as you go back further in time, the lack of data makes the tree a bit muddy. However, our relationship to other apes and mammals has remained remarkably consistent through all of those disciplines and more.

Uh-huh! Related as in similarity which does not necessitate lineage.

Is it just a pre-conceived belief, or could it also be the remarkable consistency in the positive test results of Darwin's hypothesis?

And that's the point there are very few "positive test results" and many negative ones (but the narrative remains) in fact most of biology has nothing to do with Darwin. And yes humans are similar to chimps and bonobos and actually about 67% similar to pigs and genomicaly about 90% similar to cats...Pteradactyls, bats, and avians all have wings so what...lineage is interpretation of the data (which MAY BE true or MAY NOT BE true) that is based on the already long accepted notion ( a good one, even a viable one, but not an established one, though my opinion was also once so "shaped")

And we have so much more data than Darwin could have ever imagined confirming that those lines do indeed exist.

Good! Show me what fills them?

The only thing Haeckel did wrong is embellish his drawings. The idea was sound. So sound, in fact, that many textbooks have replaced his drawings with ACTUAL PICTURES.

That is a perfect example of how your opinion has been shaped. The pictures of the real ones came out soon after and they showed he was a LIAR to promote the preconceived notion. And no that is not all he did...he claimed the undeveloped soon to be enveloped spine as a tail the fat folds were Gills, and more (He was a fraud for the cause and his influence and already falsified belief that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny was being pushed as true in public education and even many Universities all the way into the 1960s). Thanks to other objective more honest scientists we know these things are simply NOT true...

Yes all animal embryos are very similar in form and function...(again does not mean one type of organism became others)

Then we should probably stop using it in paternity tests and murder cases, right?

You really need to either learn how to read, or stop equivocating..

What I said never implied such nonsense.
 
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pshun2404

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Fine then direct me to a site where the two creature's genomes are simply placed side by side without alignment programs that are full of created gaps (called insertions and deletions), where entire sections if just left alone do not actually match up and let's look together....and you will find as I did that the sequences no longer follow along consistently (because that is what is ACTUAL for the respective genomes).

And don't bore me with a few studies that have manipulated the sequences in this way...I have read hundreds of those.

You see (unbeknowst to those convinced by the pedagogues) we know how this really works (shh! You are not supposed to be told the truth....its the enemy of the lie. Shhh!)

Well Published Geneticist, Richard J. A. Buggs, (published in over a dozen peer-reviewed Journals such as Nature, Molecular Ecology, Annals of Botany, Evolution, The Journal of Evolutionary Biology, Taxon, and more). In Chimpanzee, 1_282611, 2008, Buggs and his team took the extant chimpanzee genome data to "finally derive an accurate overall DNA similarity between humans and chimps." He reports...

To compare the two genomes, the first thing we must do is to line up the parts of each genome that are similar (because as they are they are not found near one another). When we do this alignment, we discover that only 2400 million of the human genome’s 3164.7 million ‘letters’ align with the chimpanzee genome – that is, 76% of the human genome. (and that only happens after the intentional manipulation of the actual data into something it is naturally NOT before that it is far far less and that is what is called "THE truth")

(all parentheses mine)

Looking closely at the chimpanzee-like 76% of the human genome, we find that to make an exact alignment, we often have to introduce artificial gaps in either the human or the chimp genome. (note the admission of "artificial gaps") These gaps give another 3% difference. So now we have a 73% similarity between the two genomes.

In the neatly aligned sequences we now find another form of difference, where a single ‘letter’ is different between the human and chimp genomes. These provide another 1.23% difference between the two genomes. Thus, the percentage difference is now at around 72%. (they label many of these "insertions" or "deletions" where as they only occur because of the unnatural forced alignment process and most are not either...they are merely normal parts of that organisms respective genome)

We also find places where two pieces of human genome align with only one piece of chimp genome, or two pieces of chimp genome align with one piece of human genome. This “copy number variation” causes another 2.7% difference between the two species."

So do you see how this HONEST AND OBJECTIVE scientist (not some wacko) shows how, to get the matches, the genomes must be manipulated and made to appear to be what they actually are not? Then STUDENTS and the public
are TAUGHT they ARE using the Geobel's principle.

The "shaped" narrative (which conveniently does not allow the taught to see the real untruthfulness of the model) is kind of like the magician's slight of hand...to keep you from seeing the whole truth they divert you away from FACTS like these and lead you in a loop...when stuck go to the fossils...not working QUICK switch to the shared genes illusion...oh oh now the ERVs now go to the ERVs quick... now list a whole bunch of subject matters not specifically on topic to muddy the waters and make them think of other things quick...they must not realize the extent we went through to produce the image we wanted to produce in their already shaped opinon...now get five or six Ph.D.s to repeat the assumptive conclusion over and over..maybe we can pay some artists to draw or paint or photoshop some contrived images to imprint them...one picture after all is worth 1000 words (every good propagandist knows that)
 
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46AND2

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Then we should probably stop using it in paternity tests and murder cases, right?

You really need to either learn how to read, or stop equivocating..

What I said never implied such nonsense.

The idea behind the human comparison of genomes for relatedness, and the comparison of human to ape genomes, is the the same principle. They just use different markers. So tell me why we can determine relatedness among humans, but can't with other species, without the a priori religious belief that humans are not related to animals?
 
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46AND2

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Ok, so let's say there are only 100,000 common ERVs with chimps, accounting for your preferred % of commonality, plus a generous deduction, just because. Heck, we could go with 50,000 for all I care. It is STILL exceedingly unlikely that so many viruses were independently orthologously contracted between the two species.
 
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Gene2memE

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Buggs' estimate has been shown to be flawed.

More recent published studies offer figures of 94-99.6%. For example:
Comparing the human and chimpanzee genomes: Searching for needles in a haystack
https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7404/full/nature11128.html

Even Jeffrey P. Tomkins - a creationist publishing in a creationist journal in 2014 - has publish a figure of 89% (after a discovery of a systematic error in the software used to make earlier estimates of 70-76%).
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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There is no such thing as "ancestor of the gaps". What there is, is the genetic facts of common ancestry.

Yes there definitely is. Whenever somethings cannot be adequately demonstrated the default position is it happened in our common ancestor.

Please give a specific example to illustrate this, because I'm not sure what you mean.

In any case, it seems you're doing your outmost best to ignore the fact that we can determine common ancestry based on DNA.

Obviously, there are unknowns. Obviously, there are unanswered questions.
That's why research continues.

But we're talking details here. None of the unanswered questions, changes anything about the stuff that we do know.

We don't need to have access to your parents to determine that you and your siblings share the same parents. All we need for determining that you share ancestors, is a sample of both your DNA.

Exactly, and this makes MY case.

For heaven's sake... No. No, it really doesn't.


Did you expect a homo sapiens to yield non-human DNA????

(no quasi-ape or apeish-human...just HUMAN)

Human DNA = ape DNA.
Chimpanzee DNA = Ape DNA.
Gorilla DNA = ape DNA.

All of the above DNA = Mammal / Tetrapod / Vertabrate / Eukaryote DNA

And the way we determine parental sources (and I have been used to do these tests many times) is by the comparison of specific markers and having a sample of the DNA of both parents is best (but not required to identify one or the other).

Exactly. You look for matches in markers.
ERV's can be used as markers. They occur through insertion in a random spot in the DNA of a host. This host then passes that on to off spring. The children of the host all will have that marker.

Why is it, do you think, that we share more ERV's with primates then any other animal?
Why is it, do you think, that if we map out shared ERV's, we get a hierarchical tree?
Why is it, do you think, that this tree matches trees that are mapped out independendly based on other lines of evidence? Other genetic markers, complete genes, comparative anatomy - even the tracing of a single bone, geographic distribution of species, etc?

Why is it, that from whatever angle we approach this comparision of organisms, it always converges on that exact same hierarchical pattern that looks exactly like a family tree?

So show me the quasi-ape source genome for comparison and then we can know...until then it is merely hypothesis driven interpretation.

No, I cannot show you a homo sapiens with non-homo sapiens DNA.
Why are you asking me to support evolution, by requesting the kind of data that would disprove it, instead?


You JUST said yourself that having the DNA of the ancestors helps, but isn't required!
If you have 10 anonymous DNA samples, 2 of which are siblings, it's pretty trivial in general to point them out. As you said: you look for markers. Because markers are inherited. It's how DNA works.

So...
We know how DNA mutates.
We know how DNA is passed on.
We know how to "read" it.

From there, you have everything you need to know to map out relationship levels of a population without having access to ancestral DNA.

Because all mammals have a face, hair, and feeds their young from their own bodies does not mean one came from the other OR that there was a creature they both came from (those are totally assumptive in nature).

There collective DNA, says otherwise.


So the entire scientific community hasn't noticed that (but you did, somehow)? That's your argument?

Anyhow, off course you are wrong. The data doesn't lie, nore is there much to "interpret". Creatures either share traits / markers etc or they don't.
Evolution predicts one very specific pattern of distribution of such shared markers.
And the real world matches that prediction.

Next, I totally understand it and no genetics does not prove common ancestry.

So, patternity tests don't work? That's not what you said 2 paragraphes back.

It only PROVES similarity in form or function between different organisms.

It proves blood ties.

Evolution theory explains the mechanism by which the divergence of life into all the variety we see, happened. That this divergence took place one way or another, is not really debateable any longer.

That is your opinion I know but I disagree.

Not an opinion.

I say YES it must continue to be debatable because NO it only offers a viable "explanation" but one that has NOT been proven (just already accepted to be true before the evidence comes in...and that IMO is not good science).

No, the facts of genetics weren't accepted as true before anyone even knew what DNA was.
The discovery of DNA had the potential of completely undermining or even falsifying evolution theory. Instead, biologists were overwhelmed by how everything fits like pieces of a puzzle.

Before this discovery, it wasn't known, only hypothesized, how traits were being passed on to off-spring and how they were altered. Obviously, they were being passed on and altered, but the mechanism was a mystery.

Genetics, provided that mechanism.


That's evolutionary history and it doesn't change anything about the facts of genetics and comparative anatomy.

Geneticists determine that we share ancestors with crockodiles, rabbits, etc.
Paleontologists and whatnot, try to find those ancestors and attempt to reconstruct the past.
Different fields, different studies.

But make no mistake, whatever the paleontologists finds in the ground, it has the potential of disrupting the theory! If they would find a fossil of a mammal with feathers for example, that would be a huge problem!

But they don't find crockoducks. Instead, they only find things that make sense in context of common descent.
 
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pshun2404

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Okay! First you should realize your one thought here is confusing the two unrelated uses of the idea of “related” hence being co-mingled in such a way that equivocation can be readily accessed.

This comes from your training. This is a subtle kind of cognitive dissonance built into explanations of the hypothesis. The equivocation actually happens naturally for you and so you do not recognize you are doing it when conversing with others (it supports the confirmation bias).

The idea behind the human comparison of genomes for relatedness, and the comparison of human to ape genomes, is the the same principle. They just use different markers.

This applies the actual...that we can indicate similarities and difference (of which there are many in both genomes). Here “related” actually only addresses similarity (we share about 90% with cats)

So tell me why we can determine relatedness among humans, but can't with other species, without the a priori religious belief that humans are not related to animals?

Now you unconsciously equivocate to usage of the meaning of "related" in the familial sense (lineage) but cannot recognize that you switched. When stuck in the logic loops you see them as meaning or implying the exact same thing bit they do not. We find this when rescuing people suffering from Stockholm Syndrome and when deprogramming victims of cult psychology.

To support your unconscious equivocation you try to imply (as you probably believe I actually said but NEVER did) that I said or am trying to mean that “humans are not related to animals”...that’s is a perfect example of an assumption based conclusion.

a) I never said that nor do I think that. Our bodies are animal bodies...as creatures we are biological beings (just like any other animal).

b) This is further evidence (I am sharing for your enlightenment) of the presence of the loop. Before actual resolution and clarification of our points in this one area, you move to another, bringing in yet another topical diversion (subconsciously not intentionally) to muddy the waters and cause a disruption in the flow of logical thoughts presented. That I am making an a priori religious argument which not once have I ever implied.

I know you do not even realize it...you have done this about three times now and never even noticed! Believe me I understand, I had this down quite masterfully when I was defending this position as a lifestyle. It was not easy learning to actually being able to separate the raw data from the positional explanation I had been taught.

------------

Yes, we can plainly see and pretty accurately determine familial lineage by using a different set of markers within true lineages, but they only are applicable to families within the same type of organism.

So it is that we cannot actually determine familial lineage with other creature using the “similarity” approach because of the vast array of differences (being greater and fewer compared with different species) but think about the next point...

Now, without psychological equivocation on your part (if that is even possible at this point but for your sake I hope it is becoming clearer) imagine using the “who’s the daddy” section and test using only THOSE specifically applicable markers???

Guess what happens???? Right...we are NOT related!!!! No surprise here anymore, but I must admit, back then , I never really had thought it out! Instead my brain automatically equivocated the two meanings...you apparently still cannot escape the loop but one day I hope for you that you will be able to. Then you will be able to look with simple objectivity...

In theology we find the same thing when trying to reason with the trained Calvinist or YEC...they even pour new meaning into commonly understood terms over time (like the term "sovereign") to bolster and support their pre-conceived assumption based conclusions.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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This applies the actual...that we can indicate similarities and difference (of which there are many in both genomes). Here “related” actually only addresses similarity

It most certainly does not. It's the exact same principle. It's looking for matches in genetic markers. These matches indicate bloodties because genetic markers are passed on from ancestor to off spring, through heritability of DNA.

It is the exact same thing.

We're not talking about "similarity". We're talking about exact matches, which when mapped out result in the very same hierarchical family tree that we also obtain from different independent lines of evidence.

Now you unconsciously equivocate to usage of the meaning of "related" in the familial sense (lineage) but cannot recognize that you switched.

There is no switch.
There is just the tracing of genetic markers that are passed down from ancestor to off spring.

Yes, we can plainly see and pretty accurately determine familial lineage by using a different set of markers within true lineages, but they only are applicable to families within the same type of organism.

Any genetic sequence, can serve as such a marker, as all genetic sequences are passed down from ancestor to off spring.

The most "ancient" dna sequences will be present in all organisms. Like the sequences to metabolise suggar, for example.

The genographic project uses markers to trace human ancestral migration paths thousands of years back, for example.

So it is that we cannot actually determine familial lineage with other creature using the “similarity” approach

There is no "similarity" approach. There is only the approach of exact matches of markers.

Like the thousands of shared ERV's between humans and the other great apes.

I must admit, back then , I never really had thought it out! Instead my brain automatically equivocated the two meanings...

Right, right... and you random guy on the internet figured this out, all wich is still hopelessly missed by just about the entire scientific community who study all this stuff for a living.

All the experts are fooled! But you... you random guy on the internet, you figured it out.

Uhu.
 
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Astrophile

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Having looked at Wikipedia, I find that Homo sapiens probably evolved around 300,000 years ago (Homo sapiens - Wikipedia and http://www.nature.com/news/oldest-homo-sapiens-fossil-claim-rewrites-our-species-history-1.22114); this would probably be about 15,000 generations, so our 8000-greats-grandmother was, as you put it, 'TRULY HUMAN'.

However, eight million generations would amount to about 60-70 million years (Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale, Chapter 8). There are no human fossils of this age; in fact the oldest fossil ape - Rukwapithecus fleaglei - is only 25.2 million years old - http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/35555/title/Oldest-Fossil-of-Ape-Discovered/, or about 1.5 million generations.

To suppose that 'TRULY HUMAN' primates existed about 40 million years, or more than six million generations, before the earliest ape stretches possibility beyond its limits. As I have said, there are no fossil humans, or even fossil apes or fossil monkeys, of this age, and the primates of seven or eight million generations ago were far more different from humans than the australopithecines or any living ape. Therefore, our eight-million-greats-grandmothers cannot have been 'TRULY HUMAN'; they may have belonged to an early primate species, perhaps of the infraorder Adapiformes, but in the absence of fossils we really don't know.
 
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46AND2

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This is all utter hogwash. It appears you are the one with confirmation bias, not even realizing that you admitted to the very thing that you accused me of incorrectly assuming about your position, when you said this:

"Yes, we can plainly see and pretty accurately determine familial lineage by using a different set of markers within true lineages, but they only are applicable to families within the same type of organism."

The last phrase is the very question I asked you to provide an answer for. You have nothing to base this statement on, except the belief that humans and animals do not share lineage.
 
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pshun2404

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You obviously missed the discussion. The point was not about %'s it was about how we manipulate the genome comparisons to derive the percentiles.

if humans show ACTGTCAATCGC
and the Chimp has ACTGAATCGC

They intelligently design a program to FIND areas that "align" ignoring the natural state of one or the other (the actual data) and so we end up seeing this:

Human: ACTGTCAATCGC
Chimps: ACTG AATCGC

And then we LABEL the TC or lack thereof as either insertions or deletions (which ever way they will to spin it in either case....but that is not what is really there at all, the first one was correct (showing a sequential difference of all last 8 places.

And that is just one such example others are even more preposterous....let me provide some insight from the rules of evidence in the following post to make a second point....(again nothing to do with %'s)
 
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pshun2404

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It has been said that "When you have something in one and not the other it's either an insertion in the one that has them or a deletion in the one that doesn't."

Except if they ever were always a normal part of each respective genome just as they are, one in one order with their sequence and the other in their order with a different sequence. IF it was always what it is in each (making each creature what they are uniquely), THEN there is no need to automatically assume one is inserted and/or the other is deleted.

Secondly one has to ASSUME that at one time their genomes were the same (in an alleged Common Ancestor) to see this. Now as in every case in any area of expertise, to confirm it one must produce an example of the original model for comparison or else the whole assumption remains in the realm of the theoretical and hypothetical. You CAN see that this makes sense can't you?

Proof of insertion or deletion

In all cases of contract law any claims of insertions or deletions must be demonstrated to assure confirmation. The person or persons making the claim of an insertion or deletion, to demonstrate credibility of the claim must produce an example of the earlier copy for comparison. If it can be seen that something previously not there now is, or that something previously there now is missing, then it is considered an insertion (to have been inserted) or a deletion (to have been deleted).

How can one prove such a deletion in a data set? If we have access to the complete database by comparing earlier versions with the latest version we can easily detect a deletion with assurance. One can never assume a deletion without comparison to the earlier version. Hearsay, and opinion, regardless of alleged expertise, is not confirmation of the claim.

In accounting systems the same rule applies. If one claims an insertion or deletion into the record has taken place, confirmation can only be demonstrated when the auditor or examiner is allowed to see or discovers the earlier version which does or does not contain the insertion or deletion, and compare.

MacDonalds was once questioned on their claim that all their food was natural. After investigation it could be shown against the genome of a true actual russet potato that an insertion had occurred. They had inserted a segment of butterfly gene into their potato crop to fight a particular pestilence. But the insertion had been confirmed and so now they are quite honest about it.

In choosing a cloning vector, they must be small molecules because they are easier to manipulate. The sequence being inserted must be capable of prolific replication inside the recipient cell in order to enable the amplification of the inserted donor fragment. Identifying such an insertion is easily confirmed. It is confirmed because we can see how it was not there, and now is there! The same is true when we splice out a segment from an extant genome. We can confirm this actually happened by comparing the genome which previously contained the segment, with the same genome from which it is now deleted. Otherwise such a claim may be interpreted to suggest it happened, and dozens could even claim it happened, but that does not confirm it.
 
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Astrophile

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Of course this is true. Of course every living thing came from parents of the same species (excepting such oddities as mules), just as every human child spoke the same language as at least one of its parents. However, children are not identical to their parents, and over long periods small differences accumulate to make large differences. Darwin explained, in Chapter 1 of The Origin of Species, that the modification of domestic animals by artificial selection depends on 'the accumulation in one direction, during successive generations, of differences absolutely inappreciable by an uneducated eye'. Richard Dawkins made the same point when he gave Chapter 3 of The Blind Watchmaker the title 'Accumulating small change'.

During the many generations of transition from, for example, Australopithecus to Homo, every child was not only 'of the same type of organism' as its parents but closely resembled them. There was no point where the children belonged to a different species from the parents, where one could say that the parents belonged to the genus Australopithecus and the children to the genus Homo, any more than there is a specific wavelength where one can say that shorter wavelengths are yellow light and longer wavelengths are orange light.

It was only over a long period of perhaps a few hundred thousand years and about 10,000 generations, that the almost inappreciable differences between parent and child accumulated so that at the end of the transition the descendants belonged to a different species from the ancestors. To classify one fossil as Australopithecus and another as Homo, or one fossil as Mesohippus and another as Miohippus, however necessary it may be, is to falsify the state of affairs; it is drawing a sharp dividing line in an essentially continuous distribution, and speaking of 'black' and 'white' where there are really only shades of grey (and a lot more than 50 of them).
 
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pshun2404

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"The last phrase is the very question I asked you to provide an answer for. You have nothing to base this statement on, except the belief that humans and animals do not share lineage."

That is not the belief...the belief is that humans do not share the family markers with OTHER animals.
 
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pshun2404

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"...children are not identical to their parents, and over long periods small differences accumulate to make large differences."

True but clearly not large enough to transform us into a different type of organism (which is the point of Darwin's idea).

Nice light analogy but it is not applicable. Australopithecus never became Homo, being a less aboreal variety of Ape it went extinct...natural selection caused death to its species.
 
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46AND2

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Ok...let's hypothetically state that chimps and humans do share a common ancestor. If that were the case, do you agree that we should theoretically be able to find markers which bear that out? Why or why not.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Over one generation, of course not, over hundreds of thousands? No problem. You just essentially claim that it was possible to walk to the corner drug store, but settlers could never have crossed the U.S. by foot.

And what evidence do you have that Australopithecus was not our ancestor, besides empty unsupported assertion?
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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Which is demonstrably false.
We share plenty of markers with other animals. And the distribution of those markers is exactly as expected in context of an evolutionary past.
 
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pshun2404

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The problem is that over 100,000 generations and nothing indicates such morphological change!

The middle analogy is not even analogous so I am going to skip right over that.

As for your last point you are insisting that I need to prove a negative when the alleged positive (which is the claim) has not been substantiated (hence Mayr's reference to the actual unresolvable gap that requires a historical narrative).
 
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