• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Was the Reformation a failure?

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This was a question posed long ago in the General Theology area. While it is argued that the line between Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant faiths still widens, I am of the opinion that the Reformation was a great success. I know I will catch the devil over that statement, however, let’s look at some facts.

The Effect on Religion

To a greater degree than ever before, in the centuries between 1500 and 1750, Christianity gave rise to new and potent religious movements. Besides sparking the Protestant movement, it also had the effect of sparking a Catholic Reformation. The Catholic and Protestant Reformations were actually two phases of one movement. In both, it may be said both were seeking to cleanse the church and to bring it closer to the Christian ideal. And both movements fostered in later generations, a great move towards Christian missions.

While the Protestant Reformation sought to bring reform from within, it did reject some tenants of Catholicism. While on the other hand, it did force the Catholic Church to re-examine its own teachings and traditions. This is most clearly seen in the calling of the “Council of Trent”.

Protestantism was a powerful thrust upon Christianity. And, there were factors that were hostel to Protestantism, such as the tendency of “nationalism”, ambitions of monarchs, and the expanding growth of the new “middle class”. And it has been argued that these were but “secondary” causes, they did make it possible for Protestantism to survive, thrive, and even help shape Protestantism.

And the Reformation did have some positive effects on Catholicism. One area most notably was the revivification of old monastic orders, and brought about new ones.

Another area where both the Catholic and Protestant Reformations were to have a huge impact was how it penetrated all levels of society. From the tenth to twelfth centuries, new monastic movements and their creators were from the aristocracy. While the Protestant Reformation produced pioneers who were mostly of peasant stock.

However, the Reformation also produced numerous intellectuals in both the Protestant and Catholic faiths. Prior to the Reformation, during the “Middle Ages”, most of the clergy had little education. The printing press had an immeasurable effect. Books and pamphlets were now accessible to a large proportion of the population. Notable was the ability to print catechisms for the education among both Protestants and Catholics.

Reformation Christianity and the Effect on Political Life and Structure

There are too numerous examples of the state controlling the church to list. However, Protestantism did provide fertile ground for the development of “democracy”. The Reformation churches had in it much of democracy. This is especially true of Presbyterians, but most noteworthy were the Independents, Baptists, and Quakers.

And thanks to John Locke, his sentiments were later echoed in the Declaration of Independence saying that men are:

“…by nature, all free, equal, and independent. No man can be put out of his estate without his full consent.”

Reformation Christianity and its Effects on Economic Theory and Practice

Feudalism was fading. Commerce was mounting. Guilds, which formed to regulate trade, were disappearing. “Laissez faire” was beginning to formulate due in part to close control of commerce by the state being dominated by monarchs. Capitalism was taking shape. So what has this to do with Christianity?

It has been argued most successfully (cf. M. Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism) that Protestantism, especially Calvinism, was a major source of capitalism. The Reformation faith taught that every Christian and not clergymen alone should regard their occupation a vocation which they should pursue in response to the call of God, and should work conscientiously as “in the sight of God”. This led to a “kind” of asceticism. They were to seek to produce what would be useful to the community.

They were not to be idle, nor spend selfishly or luxuriously. They were to make all they could, spend what was necessary, save the surplus, and give part for worthy causes. And there are arguments out there that say this ultimately led to the accumulation of wealth, and thereby made capitalism possible. Thusly Protestantism fostered by way of acquisition of capital, the growth of the “bourgeoisie”. For example, it may be pointed out that while in the Netherlands, while committed to the Reformed faith, it became a great commercial power, and in England, Puritanism had its chief strongholds in the middle class that were thriving in the cities that were thriving on the expanding industry and trade.

However, before this is debated, we can look back at the middle ages long before Protestantism emerged, and see that capitalism had roots in the earliest European bankers who were not Protestant, but Catholic. And, I will admit that it cannot be proven that Calvinism was the decisive impulse in the development of capitalism, or even the cause of it. But I can say with confidence that it was the Reformed faith that proved to be fertile ground for capitalism.

Reformation Christianity and Social Life

With all due respect, the effects of Reformation Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) had a greater impact on the West as opposed to the East. It is here also that the Catholic Reformation was to shine.

When the Roman Empire finally collapsed, the “social services” once provided by the “state”, were inherited by the church. In contrast, in the “East”, the control of the state and the influence exerted upon the church by the Moslems worked against the church.

Whatever the reason, in the West, during the Protestant and Catholic Reformation, the power inherent in the Christian faith, gave rise to many efforts for the underprivileged and social reform.

Again, with all due respect, one of the reasons why Protestantism was slow to do much for the poor, sick, and orphans, was partly due to their stressing of salvation by faith alone. Protestantism decried efforts to win merit by doing good works. And again, with all due respect, from Protestant convictions, during this time they had no monastic orders, and these were the chief instruments by which the Roman Catholics cared for these members of society. Yet Protestants did find a way. They did it partly through the parish as in England and Scotland, and through institutions such as orphanages like the one the Pietists created at Halle.

Both the Catholic and Protestant Reformations were to give rise to prison reforms that were to come in the nineteenth century. Both Reformations did much for women. Societies and orders made up of women became more prominent in the RCC. And in some cases, as with Quakers, women were placed nearly or completely equal with men.

Marriage was another. This gave among Protestants, a distinct change in family life and honor the wife. Even among Catholics, no longer for a time, was marriage unlawful for the clergy. Celibacy was esteemed the higher way for Christians.

Reformation Christianity and Art and Music

Here again, with all due respect to my Protestant brethren, here was another area where the Catholic Church was to shine.

While some of the greatest art, literature, and music came out of the middle ages, very little was allowed outside “Christian” themes. However, on the verge of the Reformation, it was in 1498 that Leonardo Di Vinci finished the beautiful mural of the “Last Supper”.

Some of the most beautiful architecture was to come from this. Notable and even I admit I am impressed by St. Peter’s in Rome. The Jesuits also contributed in designing churches so that the congregation could see the celebration of the Mass. This had the effect of encouraging participation. As a result of the Catholic Reformation, more prominence was given to the pulpit so greater care was taken and churches designed so that the sermon could be heard.

If this is true of Catholicism, it is also true of Protestantism. Again, partly because of a different conviction reacting against what they deemed “idolatry”, most especially in the use of images, sculptures, paintings, and stained glass windows, many Protestants made their churches severely plain. But in spite of this, there were some inspired Christian architecture. A classic example is St. Paul’s cathedral in England. This style also made its way to the thirteen colonies.

Some of the greatest music was written during this time. Johann Sebastian Bach, a Lutheran, who devoted much of his genius and service to the church. George Fredrick Handel wrote a lot of secular music, most notably were his operas. Yet he was not without Christian influence. He will probably be forever known above all for his “Messiah”.

And in light of this, in both Reformations, the use of hymns and psalms were being used. So…to finally answer the question, was the Reformation a failure?

Catholics and Protestants must agree and say in one accord a resounding NO!

I quoted extensively from:

History of Christianity, Reformation to Present, Kenneth Scott LaTourette, Prince Press; Revised edition (1975)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel

1watchman

Overseer
Site Supporter
Oct 9, 2010
6,040
1,227
Washington State
✟358,388.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Reformation effort as a protest to the RC religion, was a work of God through some godly saints to recover the Gospel message, and in that it was a success; however, Satan got into it and made the effort into a sectarian movement of denominated sects under various ideas. Much of the ceremonies, rituals, activities, and teachings were kept by the various sects which they had learned over 1000 years of RCC rule to circa 1500.

The new revival in circa 1800 brought forth a movement to recover Church Truth, which embraced the scriptural Gospel and added the universal truth for the Church. One can read some about this at biblecounsel.net as to what God intended for His testimony in the world.
 
Upvote 0

Keachian

On Sabbatical
Feb 3, 2010
7,096
331
36
Horse-lie-down
Visit site
✟31,352.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
one negative effect of the Reformation and the Counter Reformation was that the Catholic Church became more centralized and more reactionary

It was already doing that to an extent though, it was trending that way before the Schism and the claims to centralisation were the doctrinal concerns of the East in that the See that once claimed that universality was to the detriment of the Church was now claiming universality.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
one negative effect of the Reformation and the Counter Reformation was that the Catholic Church became more centralized and more reactionary

Hi brother!

Hope you are blessed!

I am really glad you posted. I was wanting your comments on the above.

And yes, it did have the effect of "centralizing" the Catholic faith, but more importantly, in my opinion, it did force the RCC to re-examine their teachings and beliefs.

And no matter the donomination, that's not necesarily a bad thing.

I was impressed, as I read, on the effect of the Reformation when it came to missions. The RCC led the world at one time. Especially in the 1400's. Wherever Spain went, the Catholic faith went. The RCC reached into the Americas, Latin America, the Carribean, South America, Asia, China, Japan, etc.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟256,121.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
It was already doing that to an extent though, it was trending that way before the Schism and the claims to centralisation were the doctrinal concerns of the East in that the See that once claimed that universality was to the detriment of the Church was now claiming universality.
true, centrality has always been an issue, but I think it can be argued that the Reformation kind of pushed the Roman Catholic Church into a kind of "bunker mentality" that exaggerated these tendencies

Hi brother!

Hope you are blessed!

I am really glad you posted. I was wanting your comments on the above.

And yes, it did have the effect of "centralizing" the Catholic faith, but more importantly, in my opinion, it did force the RCC to re-examine their teachings and beliefs.

And no matter the donomination, that's not necesarily a bad thing.

I was impressed, as I read, on the effect of the Reformation when it came to missions. The RCC led the world at one time. Especially in the 1400's. Wherever Spain went, the Catholic faith went. The RCC reached into the Americas, Latin America, the Carribean, South America, Asia, China, Japan, etc.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Oh yes, I did not mean to sound overly negative, it is just that you did such a good job of showing the positive effects of the Reformation and the Counter Reformation, I just wanted to show one of the effects that could be seen as less then optimal

another good effect of the Counter Reformation is that it did away with the "culture of ignorance" that had sprouted up in many communities, the RCC refocused on education, many of the religious orders that were started around that time having a profound effect on education, with orders like the Ursulines and the Jesuits both groups worked and changed the face of education in Europe
 
Upvote 0

now faith

Veteran
Site Supporter
Jul 31, 2011
7,772
1,568
florida
✟279,972.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Hi brother!

Hope you are blessed!

I am really glad you posted. I was wanting your comments on the above.

And yes, it did have the effect of "centralizing" the Catholic faith, but more importantly, in my opinion, it did force the RCC to re-examine their teachings and beliefs.

And no matter the donomination, that's not necesarily a bad thing.

I was impressed, as I read, on the effect of the Reformation when it came to missions. The RCC led the world at one time. Especially in the 1400's. Wherever Spain went, the Catholic faith went. The RCC reached into the Americas, Latin America, the Carribean, South America, Asia, China, Japan, etc.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I agree the reformation,helped missions a lot,considering history prior.

The Spanish Inquistion, headed by the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella, was likely the most important influence in Spain during the 1400s. The whole social system was built around the church and its practices and laws. Those who did not comply with those laws were tortured and executed.

Read more: The Effect of the Roman Catholic Church in Spain From 1300-1500 | eHow
 
Upvote 0

Striver

"There is still hope."
Feb 27, 2004
225
34
South Carolina
✟39,794.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I wouldn't call it a failure, but I would not exactly call it a stunning success, either.

The closer one returns to Reformation, then the more general positives that come up with it. The glaring exception would be the persecution that both Protestants and Roman Catholics sponsored. However, one must be careful not to judge too harshly. The loss of innocent life is never to be overlooked, but anachronistically applying modern values and sensibilities to these times is a mistake. In the era of Reformation, the wrong ideas or beliefs could lead the destruction of a town, area, or country.

Returning to the question at hand, the Reformation obviously made Protestantism, but it also made Catholicism better for calling attention to abuses and failures. One cannot blame a Roman Catholic or Orthodox believer for saying that it still was a failure because we approach the topic from almost totally distinct perspectives. Any division in the church is ultimately regrettable, but the necessity argument is more than tenable.

With that said, I do find two trends emerging from the Reformation alarming.

The first trend is the carrying out of sola scriptura to an extreme end. Some have coined the phrase solo scriptura to express the new ultra-Bible-alone mentality, which really is code for my interpretation of the Bible alone. I see this a good bit in my Baptist circles, but it is certainly present in most Protestant denominations. I see a neglect of there being five solas, and essentially throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The other tendency is more of an American trend, but it involves seeing the Reformation's resulting political shifts as a Biblical good to be wed to the faith. Obviously, we are blessed and benefit greatly from the free exercise of religion! However, flourishing under a good and workable system of government doesn't make that government God-sanctioned in the sense that it is "Biblical" government.

The problem is that democracy and capitalism have slowly worked their way into the church. I think many early Presbyterians and Baptists would approve of the now extant separation of church and state, but we be shocked at the blowback that has crept into the church. At last count there were some 19,000 Protestant tribes of one form or another, taking the idea of democracy and capitalism to the extreme. (There's a church for that.)

I am personally alarmed at the businessification of the church this has brought about. I am okay with metaphor and working with the necessary evils (church has to have a business component to exist, versions need copyrights, etc.), but the lines are really blurring in a lot of sectors of patriotism and business.

At the end of the day, it is easy to criticize anything large for its excesses, which is why I consider the Reformation a success. However, we are coming to a point of inflection where the baby has mostly gone out with the bathwater, and we are left with a highly fractured church that is beautiful in the sense of whom it includes, but terrifying in the sense that the train seems to be picking up speed. As a simple example, look at Luther, Zwingli, any other reformer, or even slightly later guys like Calvin and you'll see a very foreign and diverse notion of authority and church tradition as compared to many modern practices. That scares me, and I've awoken to that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0