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Was the church ever wrong???

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Hoonbaba

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LOL I like how everyone said, "No" =)

But what about things like Galileo?  Wasn't there once a strong held belief that the world was geocentric, not heliocentric?

Wasn't he considered a heretic for saying the earth revolved around the sun?

Does anyone know more about that?

-Jason
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Wasn't there once a strong held belief that the world was geocentric, not heliocentric?

People still believe, and defend, that position. Now, can you show me the doctrine the Church promulgated that states that the universe revolves around the earth, or vice versa?
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by nyj
People still believe, and defend, that position. Now, can you show me the doctrine the Church promulgated that states that the universe revolves around the earth, or vice versa?

Wow...I never imagined that some still hold on to geocentricism.

In anycase, in that 2nd question I asked, I wasn't referring to doctrine, but just with the concept of geocentricism, or other things along those lines.

-Jason
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
A church is not a religion or organization, but a body of believers.

Why, of course, the believers have never been wrong. Ever.

What did you mean by 'believers have never been wrong."?

Cuz if that's the case, then what about the thousands of protestant denominations who teach things completely contrary to the gospel message?  There's just way too many doctrinal differences with so many Christians, so how can they all be right?

-Jason
 
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isshinwhat

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A church is not a religion or organization, but a body of believers.

Defender, St. Ignatius bears witness to the Apostolic organization within the Body of Believers, the Church. St. Ignatius was ordained a Bishop by the Apostle Peter, and was a disciple of the Apostle John, so his witness is very important. The following letter comes from the Letter of Ignatius to the Church of Smyrna.

CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

CHAPTER IX.--HONOUR THE BISHOP.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does[in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for ye are worthy. Ye have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ[shall refresh] you. Ye have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while ye endure all things, ye shall attain unto Him.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Hoonbaba

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I just thought of something.  Isn't it possible that the Church may've screwed up somewhere?

I noticed Peter, according to Paul 'was clearly in the wrong' (Gal 2:11-14).  I guess this isn't exactly about doctrine, but can it be that the church could've screwed up on a minor thing?

-Jason
 
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isshinwhat

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I just thought of something. Isn't it possible that the Church may've screwed up somewhere?

Not in anything doctrinal. Here is half of something I wrote on the topic.

Part 2...

This unity of the Bishops is symbolized and realized through Peter's successor, the Bishop of Rome. Peter was the only Apostle given the Keys of Heaven and the threefold pastoral commission of John 20:15-19 by Jesus. This didn't mean Peter could not sin, as Paul's rebuke in Galatians(?) clearly shows, what it meant was Peter was given authority in pastoral matters. Over the Church's Bishops, Peter was the greatest among equals, the shepard of the other shepards, keeping them in collegiality and unity as a part of his Christian ministry. This is what the Pope, Peter's successor, does today. His inerrancy in a very rare set of circumstances flows directly from the inerrancy of the Church as a whole, and is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Wolseley

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I noticed Peter, according to Paul 'was clearly in the wrong' (Gal 2:11-14). I guess this isn't exactly about doctrine, but can it be that the church could've screwed up on a minor thing?
Ah, yes, Galatians 2:11-14. Two points:

The Church wasn't wrong here, Peter was.

The subject was Peter's personal behavior which was wrong, not Church doctrine or teaching.
 
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Hoonbaba

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Hi Neal,

Somehow I completely over looked that entire statement of yours. Sorry about that.

In anycase, I have another question, specifically concerning peter and the papacy. In light of Peter's behavioral error, does papal infallibility mean that the pope will not screw up when it comes to doctrine?

And is the Church also infallible as well?

God bless!

-Jason
 
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isshinwhat

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In anycase, I have another question, specifically concerning peter and the papacy. In light of Peter's behavioral error, does papal infallibility mean that the pope will not screw up when it comes to doctrine?

Yes, he will not make an error when dogmatically defining a belief of the Church.

And is the Church also infallible as well?

Yeah. Let me post the first half of the statement that I quoted above. We'll see if that helps.

We believe that in the beginning of the Church, the Apostles of Christ were entrusted with the message of the Gospel. There were no New Testament Scriptures for them to quote, for they themselves wrote them for the True Author, the Holy Spirit. Yet even without New Covenant Scriptures, the Apostles taught the true and inerrant Faith. Were you to have conversed with Paul, there would have been no debating with him what he "really meant" when he wrote some passage in one of the Epistles. Christ said of the Apostles, "He who listens to you, listens to me. He who rejects you, rejects me." Later, St. Peter said to Christ in John 6, "Where else shall we go, for you have the words of eternal life." Jesus sent His Apostles out to preach those same words of eternal life, and He gave them His Spirit to ensure that it was done correctly.

One instance where the guidance of the Holy Spirit shone through was recorded in Acts Chapter 15. The Early Christian Church was faced with a dilemma: were those gentiles who had not been circumcised after their conversion saved? There was a great debate among the faithful, which called those chosen by God as shepards into action.

The Council of Jerusalem was convened and the leaders of the Church gathered and discussed this problem. After reaching their conclusion, they announced it with the following words, "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things..." (Acts 15:28).

We see two things here. First we see the Apsotles in collegiality proclaiming what seems "good to the Holy Spirit." Second we see what they pronounce is not only a burden, but is in fact obligatory, the faithful must obey the command which came from the Holy Spirit through the Apostles. A letter is sent proclaiming this to all the Church as the true Faith and obedience is expected. From that point forward, all who teach that doctrine of the Faith can be assured that is the true Gospel. Before the Council of Jerusalem there was legitimate discussion as to what the true faith was, now there could only be submission, for the Holy Spirit had spoken.

Catholics believe that the Bishops of today are the successors of the Apostles and those the Apostles ordained to lead the new Churches of the world that were and are being founded. When they speak in collegiality, that is together as in a council, we believe that the Holy Spirit protects them from proclaiming error, as promised in Matthew 16:18 and further signified in 1 Timothy 3:15 and Ephesians 2:20. Through the "pillar and foundation of truth," and built on the "foundation of the Apostles, with Christ being the cornerstone" we believe the teachings of Christ were preserved.


End part 1...

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Yes, he will not make an error when dogmatically defining a belief of the Church.



Yeah. Let me post the first half of the statement that I quoted above. We'll see if that helps.



God Bless,

Neal

Wow...I feel silly...hehe I often defend Catholicism using 1 Tim 3:15...how did I miss that?! :)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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