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Was Mary Sinless? (Words Of Augustine, Clement Of Alexandria, Pope Innocent The Third

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ProAmerican

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...and others.

Was Mary sinless?

Some say yes, others say no.

What do you think?

Here are some individuals that you may recognize. Here is what they had to say.

Let Us Reason

Is Mary Sinless?


...Augustine: "He, Christ alone, being made man but remaining God[correct doctrine!] never had any sin, nor did he take of the flesh of sin. Though He took flesh of the sin of his mother."

...Augustine , Bishop of Hippo: "Whatever flesh of sin Jesus took, He took of the flesh of sin of his mother. Jesus did not partake of sin, but took of his mother, which came under the judgment of sin."

...Clement of Alexandria: "The Word Jesus Christ alone was born without sin."

...Tertullian: "God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin in Christ; for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3)

Philip Schaff lists seven Roman bishops who rejected her sinlessness (The Creeds of Christendom [Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998], Vol. I, p. 123).

Pope Leo I: "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born immaculate."(Sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.)

...Pope Innocent the third(1216 A.D.): "She (Eve) was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin, she (Mary) was produced in sin, but she brought forth without sin." (De festo Assump. sermon 2)

When the immaculate conception was first presented in the year 1140 it was opposed by Bernard of Clairvauxn also Thomas Aqunias adamantly taught mary was a sinner.

...In fact this whole doctrine is fairly new not an apostolic tradition. It was in 1547, at the Council of Trent that the Catholic Church announcved the sinlessness of Mary enabling her to avoid venial sins. In 1620 POope Paul the 5th forbade anything contrary to the teaching of Mary's immaculate conception to be said publicly under threat of excommunication. In 1622 Pope Gregory the 15th forbade any contradictory statements of her immaculate conception to be made in private.

Excerpted. More at: http://www.letusreason.org/RC1.htm

There are many more quotes that one should take the time to read.

Please take the time to read all of the article. It shouldn't take more than about 15-20 minutes to do so. This article is a primer in getting one to do further research on this subject.

Opinions?

I would like for this thread to be kept civil, ok?

I look forward to seeing the responses.
 

ScottBot

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abbygirlforever said:
I don't understand how people can claim Mary was sinless. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" means Mary, too.
What about my 7 month old daughter? HAs she sinned and fallen short of the glory of God too?
 
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QuantaCura

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abbygirlforever said:
I don't understand how people can claim Mary was sinless. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" means Mary, too.

1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not.
 
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ScottBot

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The KJV narrative of the Annunciation, the angel Gabriel says thus, "Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you." How can one be a sinner and be full of grace? If you are filled with God's Grace, you are by necessity free from sin. Somehow, someway, Mary was cleansed of all sin prior to her being conceived with Jesus. Or are you making the claim that Jesus was conceived in a dirty vessel?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Mary was BLAMELESS....

Not sinless.

It's really quite easy.

Adam was "created" sinless... and did not age until he sinned.

Did Mary age? If so, then she had inheretted the original sinful stain of Adam..

Not that she was responable for that sin in any way... she was BLAMELESS.

However, she needed a savior just like the rest of us....

Mary led a most BLAMELESS life.... as a Saint that has gone before us she set a fine example for the rest of us...

Forgive me....
 
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Cliff2

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ProAmerican said:
...and others.

Was Mary sinless?

Some say yes, others say no.

What do you think?

Here are some individuals that you may recognize. Here is what they had to say.



Excerpted. More at: http://www.letusreason.org/RC1.htm

There are many more quotes that one should take the time to read.

Please take the time to read all of the article. It shouldn't take more than about 15-20 minutes to do so. This article is a primer in getting one to do further research on this subject.

Opinions?

I would like for this thread to be kept civil, ok?

I look forward to seeing the responses.

The only way that Mary will ever be saved is through the same process is for every human being for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

That includes Mary, as she was a sinner just like we are.

Now that is not at all putting down her at all.

I believe that she was probably the best mother this world has ever known.

She was not perfect but a very good person.

God did not make a mistake in choosing Mary as being the mother of Christ.
 
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Veritas

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ProAmerican said:
I look forward to seeing the responses.

I'm sure you do:sigh: I just happened to be looking back 3 pages for another thread and guess what I discovered? You've started 4 threads in those 3 pages and all of them are anti-Catholic. And you don't have an agenda?:scratch:
 
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Benedicta00

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ProAmerica,

If you want to learn about Catholicism then by all means, learn it but why go to a non catholic to do it?

You really should stop consulting anti Catholics and non Catholics and go to the source.

As far as the early Church, yes the early Church believed Mary to be sinless.


Immaculate Conception

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

"As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary."
Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay" Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,180

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation"
Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever."
Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."
John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200
 
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Benedicta00

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And it wasn't only the early Church who believed in her dogmas.

7. THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

When Fundamentalists study the writings of the Reformers on Mary, the Mother of Jesus, they will find that the Reformers accepted almost every major Marian doctrine and considered these doctrines to be both scriptural and fundamental to the historic Christian Faith.

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin: It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16

We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation. The Reformers themselves (see above) took a benign even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation. Moreover, while there were some excesses in popular Marian piety, Marian doctrine as taught in the pre-Reformation era drew its inspiration from the witness of Scripture and was rooted in Christology. The real reason for the break with the past must be attributed to the iconoclastic passion of the followers of the Reformation and the consequences of some Reformation principles. Even more influential in the break with Mary was the influence of the Enlightenment Era which essentially questioned or denied the mysteries of faith.

Unfortunately the Marian teachings and preachings of the Reformers have been "covered up" by their most zealous followers - with damaging theological and practical consequences. This "cover-up" can be detected even in Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective, an Evangelical critique of Mariology. One of the contributors admits that "Most remarkable to modern Protestants is the Reformers' almost universal acceptance of Mary's continuing virginity, and their widespread reluctance to declare Mary a sinner". He then asks if it is "a favourable providence" that kept these Marian teachings of the Reformers from being "transmitted to the Protestant churches"!17

What is interpreted as "Providence" by a Marian critic may legitimately be interpreted as a force of a very different kind by a Christian who has recognized the role of Mary in God’s plan.

NOTES

1 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24, 107.

2 Martin Luther, op. cit., Volume 11, 319-320.

3 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works,

English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.

Louis], Volume 4, 694.

4 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works (Translation by William J. Cole) 10, p. 268.

5 [Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works

(Translation by William J. Cole) 10, III, p.313.

6 Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], Volume 51, 128-129.

7 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.

8 Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.

9 John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.

10 John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.

11 Ulrich Zwingli, In Evang. Luc., Opera Completa [Zurich, 1828-42], Volume 6, I, 639

12 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

13 E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

14 Ibid.

15 Ibid.

16 Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.

17 David F. Wright, ed., Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspective (London: Marshall Pickering, 1989), 180.
 
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Celticflower

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OrthodoxyUSA said:
Mary was BLAMELESS....

Not sinless.

It's really quite easy.

Adam was "created" sinless... and did not age until he sinned.

Did Mary age? If so, then she had inheretted the original sinful stain of Adam..

Not that she was responable for that sin in any way... she was BLAMELESS.

However, she needed a savior just like the rest of us....

Mry led a most BLAMELESS life.... as a Saint that has gone before us she set a fine example for the rest of us...

Forgive me....

I like and can understand this viewpoint! And (to me) it makes perfect sense. Thanks Ortho :wave:
 
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NPH

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OrthodoxyUSA said:
Mary was BLAMELESS....

Not sinless.

It's really quite easy.

Adam was "created" sinless... and did not age until he sinned.

Did Mary age? If so, then she had inheretted the original sinful stain of Adam..

Not that she was responable for that sin in any way... she was BLAMELESS.

However, she needed a savior just like the rest of us....

Mry led a most BLAMELESS life.... as a Saint that has gone before us she set a fine example for the rest of us...

Forgive me....

Ortho, i'm a bit confused by what you said here :)

If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that Mary was born with the 'sinful stain' inherited from Adam and for this she was held blameless. Are you then saying that later in life she did sin? Or was she held blameless for those sins also?

This is what i'm not getting. You seem to be saying that she did indeed sin, even from birth, but alone of humanity God chose to "ignore" her sins. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me, lol. Why a need for a savior at all then if God can just choose to hold anyone blameless for their sins? Why would Mary need a savior at all if all her sins were held blameless?

I don't have time atm to further explain my misunderstanding, but if you could expound a bit i'd appreciate it.
 
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A. believer

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ProAmerican said:
...and others.

Was Mary sinless?

Some say yes, others say no.

What do you think?

Here are some individuals that you may recognize. Here is what they had to say.



Excerpted. More at: http://www.letusreason.org/RC1.htm

There are many more quotes that one should take the time to read.

Please take the time to read all of the article. It shouldn't take more than about 15-20 minutes to do so. This article is a primer in getting one to do further research on this subject.

Opinions?

I would like for this thread to be kept civil, ok?

I look forward to seeing the responses.

If you're interested in studying the beliefs of the early church on this topic, you need to distinguish between the idea of sinlessness and the doctrine of the immaculate conception. You're correct that some early church fathers taught that Mary was a sinner, but others (such as Augustine) believed in her sinlessness, but not her immaculate conception. He believed her to be subject to the stain of original sin, but preserved from committing actual sins.

John Chyrysostom is a good example of an early church father who acknowledged Mary's sin based on Scriptural exegesis. I believe your mention of Tertullian is correct, though, in that I'm pretty sure that he also acknowledged Mary's sinfulness.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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VNVnation said:
Ortho, i'm a bit confused by what you said here :)

If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that Mary was born with the 'sinful stain' inherited from Adam and for this she was held blameless. Are you then saying that later in life she did sin? Or was she held blameless for those sins also?

This is what i'm not getting. You seem to be saying that she did indeed sin, even from birth, but alone of humanity God chose to "ignore" her sins. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me, lol. Why a need for a savior at all then if God can just choose to hold anyone blameless for their sins? Why would Mary need a savior at all if all her sins were held blameless?

I don't have time atm to further explain my misunderstanding, but if you could expound a bit i'd appreciate it.

Later in life she did not sin of her own accord that she would be held blameful. She had no personal sin to ask forgiveness of.... she did what we consider impossible... she led a blameless life.

We all need the savior because we can do nothing about the inherited stain of sin from Adam...

Very few among the Saints have lived a blameless life.

Does that help?

Forgive me....
 
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Benedicta00

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VNVnation said:


Ortho, i'm a bit confused by what you said here :)

If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying that Mary was born with the 'sinful stain' inherited from Adam and for this she was held blameless. Are you then saying that later in life she did sin? Or was she held blameless for those sins also?

This is what i'm not getting. You seem to be saying that she did indeed sin, even from birth, but alone of humanity God chose to "ignore" her sins. That doesn't seem to make much sense to me, lol. Why a need for a savior at all then if God can just choose to hold anyone blameless for their sins? Why would Mary need a savior at all if all her sins were held blameless?

I don't have time atm to further explain my misunderstanding, but if you could expound a bit i'd appreciate it.
The EO view is basically we are born with no original sin only with a nature that will one day eventually sin. In their view, Mary never did sin.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Shelb5 said:
The EO view is basically we are born with no original sin only with a nature that will one day eventually sin. In their view, Mary never did sin.

Correction:

The EO view is basically we are born with the stain of Adams original sin and with a fallen nature that will one day eventually sin of our own accord. In their view, Mary never did sin.

Forgive me....
 
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OnTheWay

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The Ever-virgin Theotokos was born with the same fallen nature that we all are. Otherwise Jesus would not have been completely human and able to reconcile man and God.
However, she was free of any sin of commission. Being the Mother of God isn't something that just everyone has been. Out of all the women that had lived or ever would live God chose one.
At any rate, for being a "Mary worshippin'" Orthodox it rather seems protestants are much more obessed with the Theotokos than Roman Catholics or Orthodox.
 
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