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Was Jesus fully man before the incarnation?
Was Jesus fully man before the incarnation?
Ever since there has been men [adam] there was been a Mediator, Christ Jesus ! Now of course He then existed in the form of God [phil 2:5] and had not yet taken on flesh and blood.
John 1:1 makes reference to Christ as the logos, or that which was God eternally.
The logos timelessly co - existed with the Father equally in spirit, not in physical form, hence why the incarnation is God becoming man in the flesh.
The eternal spirit precedes the finite flesh.
I think it would be a metaphysical mistake to say that the logos was fully man prior to the incarnation, not to mention a total distortion of the doctrine.
Jesus was "conceived" of a father and a mother. (Not "incarnated".)
That is when His life began. No he didn't live as a "physical man" prior to that. Nor is He now a "physical man". That is bad doctrine.
The "Christing" by which He became our "Christ" occurred at His baptism.
Christ is from everlasting to evelasting. Christ came into Jesus, who became our Christ. One. Our Messiah in the flesh for 33 years.
God manifestation amongst us is a mystery to many.
But it is given to us to know. By receiving His resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit.
He was slain from the "foundation of the world" is directly referring to the New Heavens and New Earth.
Jesus was slain immediately prior to the foundation of the New world Heavenly Jerusalem, of which Temple we areBorn from above in Him, Sons of God, as living stones built upon the foundation of Jesus Himself that we read of in the Gospels.
That is totally what it meansCool huh!
The traditional distinction between the hypostasis and the natures needs to kept in mind. The hypostasis, or person of Jesus didn't change through the incarnation; he added a human nature to his divine nature.
A hypostasis is a consciousness which thinks, perceives, and reacts, in a relatively stable way.
A nature is something like the state of being in which a class of things exist.
If we were to talk about a plant nature, this would simply mean the category-of-living as a plant.
I have the Mind of Christ. Not adoptionism, not gnosticism.
The type is engraved deeply in scripture. [Isaac] was Abraham's son by Sarah. A miracle yes, but, not sufficient to be Blessed of God as a son of Abraham. Neither was Christ. Neither are we.
It wasn't until AFTER Abraham went to offer Him as a sacrifice, that God ratified the Covenant with Isaac as Abraham's son and the heir of the promises. See how that works?
The entire incident is for us with eyes to see and ears to hear, how that the Son of the Covenant can ONLY be Him raised from the dead.
That is why God pronounced Jesus as His Son at His baptism.
No Bible student can argue against this simplicity in Christ.
Unless of course, they've been drowned within men's doctrines of carnal re-arranging of facts. Introducing terms like "pre-existant" or "incarnation" or "hypostasis" and other worthless junk terms like that.
Jesus was pronounced God's son at His conception.
Luk 1:35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And just because you have a problem with terms like pre-existent, incarnation, or hypostasis does not invalidate their use. They are easily deduced from scripture. John speaks of Jesus' pre-existence in the very first verse and Jesus references His pre-existence with the Father since before the world was. Incarnation is again easily derived from the text because Jesus existed before His life as a physical being and therefore incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth. Hypostasis is a term that helps define the nature of Yahweh and Jesus coexisting in the same being as both man and God.
Yes, those terms are invalidated by the very fact that
1) they are unscriptural
2) they promote a lie of a "pre-existent Jesus".
Get rid of the terms, the lies disappear also.
God is Christ, Christ is God.
Jesus was CHRISTED at His baptism, making Him the Son of God by resurrection from the dead.
Yes, God anounced His Son at conception.
Then later He again anounced His son being called out of Egypt
But Jesus the CHRIST was "Begotten" at the River of Jordon.
Now you see why you need to understand Abraham and Isaac's relationship? It will perfectly explain God's "Fathering" of Christ at His Resurrection from the dead As the Son of God.
Of the flesh, Jesus was proclaimed the Son of David.
But at His resurrection, He was proclaimed the Son of God in the Spirit of Holiness.
(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
See how that works?
easy huh! And no lying words needed to 'help explain'.
You have failed to show how these words are 'lying words'. I have shown they are merely terms to describe a scriptural truth. Jesus was begotten of God the moment He came to 'be'. God's annointing of His ministry did not suddenly change Him into Christ. I already provided ample scriptural proof that Jesus was both the Son and the Christ from way before His baptism. God's annointing of His public ministry does not change this fact. Jesus' resurrection was confirmation of a truth that already existed ie that He was the Son of God and the Christ. Again confirmation does not change the fact that He was both the Son of God and the Christ from His conception. If one were to follow your logic to its' conclusion ie God is Christ, Christ is God and that Jesus was 'Christed' at His baptism then what you essentially would be saying is that He became God at His baptism but God specifically said that no other God would ever be formed. Jesus was and is God and has always been God the Son since before the world was.
It would be inaccurate to say that Christ existed as a human being prior to the Incarnation. However, there are some interesting thoughts some theologians have spoken about regarding the incarnation as more than just an historical event.
For example, I believe it's St. Irenaeus who said that even had Adam and Eve not fell, the Word would have still become flesh. The Incarnation, therefore, should not be understood simply as a response to sin, but as God's eternal purpose for mankind and creation being located in Christ who became flesh. "All things were created by Him and for Him".
There are various theological strains of thought and discussion regarding the complexity of the notions of Logos Ensarkos/Logos Asarkos, I don't really think I'm well read enough in that area of theology to make too many comments. But from at least some basic idea the issue involves the notion of the Incarnation being an intrinsic part of the Logos/Son; not just as an historical event but as an eternal reality (at least in some sense). Or, conversely, if this is not true. It's one of those areas of theology that, I think, can get exceptionally deep and rather complex.
-CryptoLutheran
Yes He was, He both God and Man before the Creation, because He was the Mediator, the Man Christ Jesus before creation 1 tim 2:
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
You see, Mary did not make him the Mediator, that was a Office He sustained and was given before the world began ! See Jn 17:5
If Jesus hadn't taken on flesh and blood, then he wasn't fully a man!
It seems to me from all this, that Jesus has always existed as a member of the trinity (and therefore as mediator for mankind), but did not fully become man till he was conceived in Mary.
He now continues to exists as that same full man in the Father's presence and will continue to do so forever.
The Nicene Creed says "He was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and was MADE man". Before the incarnation He was the Second Person of the Trinity but NOT man. That is why He had to be incarnate in these Last Days. He added to His divine Person the nature of man and became forever the God-Man and mediator of the eternal covenant. Oh and for my fellow Calvinist of a few posts before, read Calvin's Institutes. He said the same thing, as does the Westminster Confession and other Reformed confessions.
Amen, and again Amen (though I'm not so sure about the endorsement of John Calvin and Reformed Theology)!
Simonline.
Wirth respect the term hypostasis refers to how the single Person of the Son can simultaneously exist as Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]. There is no distinction between the hypostasis and the natures. Instead the distinction is between the two natures (which is what the hypostasis is all about).
snip
I was just pointing out that Calvin adhered to the historic and orthodox understanding of the incarnation and hypostatic union and NOT the view of the person who said they were Calvinists and believed Jesus was both God and man before the incarnation. I don't know what theology that is but it is NOT historic Reformed theology.
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