Was Jesus fully man before the incarnation?

[hardcore]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

 

[Simonline]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

You are clearly confusing what it means to exist as the Divine Creator and what it means to exist as a human creature. The two are not identical otherwise we would all be the Divine Creator as well as human creatures?!

Actually the doctrine goes that the Messiah/Christ as the human incarnation of YHWH is both authentic Divine [YHWH] and authentic human [Jesus of Nazareth] but the Messiah/Christ existing as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is very different to the same Messiah/Christ existing as the Divine Creator, YHWH (same Person but different state of existence).

Prior to the incarnation the Son [the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH] existed as the Divine Creator but NOT as the human creature...in other words, prior to the Incarnation the Son was GOD but He was NOT 'God's Son' (i.e. the human incarnation of God), though He WAS/IS the Son of the Father.

Once the Incarnation had happened the Son then also existed as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth as well as remaining in existence as the Divine Creator, YHWH...in other words the Son now existed both as God AND as 'God's Son' (i.e. the human incarnation of God). See my signature below.

So the answer to your question is that as the Divine Creator, the Son is Eternal but as the human creature the Son is only temporal and therefore the Son has NOT always existed as the human creature but He HAS always existed as the Divine Creator. As Divine Creator the Son is Eternal (having neither Begining nor End) whilst as human creature the Son is only everlasting (having a begining but no end).

Simonline.

 

[elopez]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

John 1:1 makes reference to Christ as the logos, or that which was God eternally. The logos timelessly co - existed with the Father equally in spirit, not in physical form, hence why the incarnation is God becoming man in the flesh. The eternal spirit precedes the finite flesh.

I think it would be a metaphysical mistake to say that the logos was fully man prior to the incarnation, not to mention a total distortion of the doctrine.

 

[Heavens]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

Jesus was "conceived" of a father and a mother. (Not "incarnated".)
That is when His life began. No he didn't live as a "physical man" prior to that. Nor is He now a "physical man". That is bad doctrine.

The "Christing" by which He became our "Christ" occurred at His baptism.

Christ is from everlasting to evelasting. Christ came into Jesus, who became our Christ. One. Our Messiah in the flesh for 33 years.

God manifestation amongst us is a mystery to many. But it is given to us to know. By receiving His resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit. He was slain from the "foundation of the world" is directly referring to the New Heavens and New Earth. Jesus was slain immediately prior to the foundation of the New world Heavenly Jerusalem, of which Temple we are Born from above in Him, Sons of God, as living stones built upon the foundation of Jesus Himself that we read of in the Gospels.

That is totally what it means Cool huh!

 

[resistingrexmundi]

Jesus was "conceived" of a father and a mother. (Not "incarnated".)
That is when His life began. No he didn't live as a "physical man" prior to that. Nor is He now a "physical man". That is bad doctrine.

Jesus has flesh now.

Luk 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


He is both Spirit and flesh. Manhood was assumed to the Godhead in Jesus and He now exists in some corporeal way.

The "Christing" by which He became our "Christ" occurred at His baptism.

Christ is from everlasting to evelasting. Christ came into Jesus, who became our Christ. One. Our Messiah in the flesh for 33 years.

This smacks of gnosticism. Jesus was and is our Christ from the moment of His conception. See verses below that acknowledge Jesus as Christ BEFORE His baptism. Jesus' baptism was God's annointing of His public ministry.

God manifestation amongst us is a mystery to many. But it is given to us to know. By receiving His resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit. He was slain from the "foundation of the world" is directly referring to the New Heavens and New Earth. Jesus was slain immediately prior to the foundation of the New world Heavenly Jerusalem, of which Temple we are Born from above in Him, Sons of God, as living stones built upon the foundation of Jesus Himself that we read of in the Gospels.

That is totally what it means Cool huh!

Sorry but John the Baptist said He was slain before the foundation of the world. There is no qualifying statement like "new" in that verse. In that statement John was revealing that God's plan of redemption started before the world ever even fell to sin.

Mat 1:1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mat 1:17So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon [are] fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ [are] fourteen generations.

Mat 1:18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 2:4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Luk 2:11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luk 2:26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

 

[Kaitlin08]

The traditional distinction between the hypostasis and the natures needs to kept in mind. The hypostasis, or person of Jesus didn't change through the incarnation; he added a human nature to his divine nature.

A hypostasis is a consciousness which thinks, perceives, and reacts, in a relatively stable way. A nature is something like the state of being in which a class of things exist. If we were to talk about a plant nature, this would simply mean the category-of-living as a plant.

 

[Heavens]

Jesus has flesh now.

Luk 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

He is both Spirit and flesh. Manhood was assumed to the Godhead in Jesus and He now exists in some corporeal way.

This smacks of gnosticism. Jesus was and is our Christ from the moment of His conception. See verses below that acknowledge Jesus as Christ BEFORE His baptism. Jesus' baptism was God's annointing of His public ministry.

.

Lol, kids today...

 

[Kaitlin08]

This smacks of gnosticism. Jesus was and is our Christ from the moment of His conception. See verses below that acknowledge Jesus as Christ BEFORE His baptism. Jesus' baptism was God's annointing of His public ministry.

What you have in mind is called adoptionism, not gnosticism.

 

[Heavens]

What you have in mind is called adoptionism, not gnosticism.

I have the Mind of Christ. Not adoptionism, not gnosticism.

The type is engraved deeply in scripture. Isacc was Abraham's son by Sarah. A miracle yes, but, not sufficient to be Blessed of God as a son of Abraham. Neither was Christ. Neither are we.
It wasn't until AFTER Abraham went to offer Him as a sacrifice, that God ratified the Covenant with Isaac as Abraham's son and the heir of the promises. See how that works?
The entire incident is for us with eyes to see and ears to hear, how that the Son of the Covenant can ONLY be Him raised from the dead.

That is why God pronounced Jesus as His Son at His baptism.

No Bible student can argue against this simplicity in Christ. Unless of course, they've been drowned within men's doctrines of carnal re-arranging of facts. Introducing terms like "pre-existant" or "incarnation" or "hypostasis" and other worthless junk terms like that.

 

[resistingrexmundi]

What you have in mind is called adoptionism, not gnosticism.

It may have been later used in that sense, but strands of gnosticism taught that Jesus did not become Christ or divine until His baptism.

 

[resistingrexmundi]

I have the Mind of Christ. Not adoptionism, not gnosticism.

The type is engraved deeply in scripture. Isacc was Abraham's son by Sarah. A miracle yes, but, not sufficient to be Blessed of God as a son of Abraham. Neither was Christ. Neither are we.
It wasn't until AFTER Abraham went to offer Him as a sacrifice, that God ratified the Covenant with Isaac as Abraham's son and the heir of the promises. See how that works?
The entire incident is for us with eyes to see and ears to hear, how that the Son of the Covenant can ONLY be Him raised from the dead.

That is why God pronounced Jesus as His Son at His baptism.

No Bible student can argue against this simplicity in Christ. Unless of course, they've been drowned within men's doctrines of carnal re-arranging of facts. Introducing terms like "pre-existant" or "incarnation" or "hypostasis" and other worthless junk terms like that.

Jesus was pronounced God's son at His conception.

Luk 1:35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And just because you have a problem with terms like pre-existent, incarnation, or hypostasis does not invalidate their use. They are easily deduced from scripture. John speaks of Jesus' pre-existence in the very first verse and Jesus references His pre-existence with the Father since before the world was. Incarnation is again easily derived from the text because Jesus existed before His life as a physical being and therefore incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth. Hypostasis is a term that helps define the nature of Yahweh and Jesus coexisting in the same being as both man and God.

 

[Heavens]

Jesus was pronounced God's son at His conception.

Luk 1:35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And just because you have a problem with terms like pre-existent, incarnation, or hypostasis does not invalidate their use. They are easily deduced from scripture. John speaks of Jesus' pre-existence in the very first verse and Jesus references His pre-existence with the Father since before the world was. Incarnation is again easily derived from the text because Jesus existed before His life as a physical being and therefore incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth. Hypostasis is a term that helps define the nature of Yahweh and Jesus coexisting in the same being as both man and God.

Yes, those terms are invalidated by the very fact that
1) they are unscriptural
2) they promote a lie of a "pre-existent Jesus".

Get rid of the terms, the lies disappear also.

God is Christ, Christ is God.
Jesus was CHRISTED at His baptism, making Him the Son of God by resurrection from the dead.

Yes, God anounced His Son at conception.
Then later He again anounced His son being called out of Egypt

But Jesus the CHRIST was "Begotten" at the River of Jordon.

Now you see why you need to understand Abraham and Isaac's relationship? It will perfectly explain God's "Fathering" of Christ at His Resurrection from the dead As the Son of God.

Of the flesh, Jesus was proclaimed the Son of David.
But at His resurrection, He was proclaimed the Son of God in the Spirit of Holiness.

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

See how that works?
easy huh! And no lying words needed to 'help explain'.

 

[resistingrexmundi]

Yes, those terms are invalidated by the very fact that
1) they are unscriptural
2) they promote a lie of a "pre-existent Jesus".

Get rid of the terms, the lies disappear also.

God is Christ, Christ is God.
Jesus was CHRISTED at His baptism, making Him the Son of God by resurrection from the dead.

Yes, God anounced His Son at conception.
Then later He again anounced His son being called out of Egypt

But Jesus the CHRIST was "Begotten" at the River of Jordon.

Now you see why you need to understand Abraham and Isaac's relationship? It will perfectly explain God's "Fathering" of Christ at His Resurrection from the dead As the Son of God.

Of the flesh, Jesus was proclaimed the Son of David.
But at His resurrection, He was proclaimed the Son of God in the Spirit of Holiness.

(Rom 1:3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
(Rom 1:4) And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

See how that works?
easy huh! And no lying words needed to 'help explain'.

You have failed to show how these words are 'lying words'. I have shown they are merely terms to describe a scriptural truth. Jesus was begotten of God the moment He came to 'be'. God's annointing of His ministry did not suddenly change Him into Christ. I already provided ample scriptural proof that Jesus was both the Son and the Christ from way before His baptism. God's annointing of His public ministry does not change this fact. Jesus' resurrection was confirmation of a truth that already existed ie that He was the Son of God and the Christ. Again confirmation does not change the fact that He was both the Son of God and the Christ from His conception. If one were to follow your logic to its' conclusion ie God is Christ, Christ is God and that Jesus was 'Christed' at His baptism then what you essentially would be saying is that He became God at His baptism but God specifically said that no other God would ever be formed. Jesus was and is God and has always been God the Son since before the world was.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

What you have in mind is called adoptionism, not gnosticism.

It also sounded a bit Cerinthian, the bit about Christ "entering" Jesus at His Baptism is less Adoptionist and more Cerinthian I think.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

It would be inaccurate to say that Christ existed as a human being prior to the Incarnation. However, there are some interesting thoughts some theologians have spoken about regarding the incarnation as more than just an historical event.

For example, I believe it's St. Irenaeus who said that even had Adam and Eve not fell, the Word would have still become flesh. The Incarnation, therefore, should not be understood simply as a response to sin, but as God's eternal purpose for mankind and creation being located in Christ who became flesh. "All things were created by Him and for Him".

There are various theological strains of thought and discussion regarding the complexity of the notions of Logos Ensarkos/Logos Asarkos, I don't really think I'm well read enough in that area of theology to make too many comments. But from at least some basic idea the issue involves the notion of the Incarnation being an intrinsic part of the Logos/Son; not just as an historical event but as an eternal reality (at least in some sense). Or, conversely, if this is not true. It's one of those areas of theology that, I think, can get exceptionally deep and rather complex.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Heavens]

You have failed to show how these words are 'lying words'. I have shown they are merely terms to describe a scriptural truth. Jesus was begotten of God the moment He came to 'be'. God's annointing of His ministry did not suddenly change Him into Christ. I already provided ample scriptural proof that Jesus was both the Son and the Christ from way before His baptism. God's annointing of His public ministry does not change this fact. Jesus' resurrection was confirmation of a truth that already existed ie that He was the Son of God and the Christ. Again confirmation does not change the fact that He was both the Son of God and the Christ from His conception. If one were to follow your logic to its' conclusion ie God is Christ, Christ is God and that Jesus was 'Christed' at His baptism then what you essentially would be saying is that He became God at His baptism but God specifically said that no other God would ever be formed. Jesus was and is God and has always been God the Son since before the world was.

 

[resistingrexmundi]

 

[Simonline]

John 1:1 makes reference to Christ as the logos, or that which was God eternally.

No. John makes reference to the Logos existing as the Logos and being distinct from the Father before He incarnated as the Messiah/Christ (1:14)

The logos timelessly co - existed with the Father equally in spirit, not in physical form, hence why the incarnation is God becoming man in the flesh. The eternal spirit precedes the finite flesh.

I think it would be a metaphysical mistake to say that the logos was fully man prior to the incarnation, not to mention a total distortion of the doctrine.

This is essentially correct. The Divine Creator cannot exist as either finite or temporal just as the human creature cannot exist as Infinite or Eternal. It is for this reason that the Divine Creator has had to incarnate as a human creature in order to bring about the redemption of His sinful Creation.

Simonline

 

[Simonline]

Jesus was "conceived" of a father and a mother. (Not "incarnated".)
That is when His life began. No he didn't live as a "physical man" prior to that. Nor is He now a "physical man". That is bad doctrine.

Not true. The Messiah is the human incarnation of the Divine Creator (Isa.43:10-13; Matt.1:23). The Messiah was not 'conceived' in the conventional way but God (by means of His Spirit) came upon Mary and the Messiah was 'conceived' in Mary by miraculous means (Lk.1:35). The Messiah's life as a finite human creature began at this point but prior to this the Son/Logos already existed as the Infinte and Eternal Divine Creator, YHWH and continues to exist as the Infinite and Eternal Divine Creator YHWH even as He also exists as the finite temporal human creature, Jesus of Nazareth (Mal.3:6; Jn.1:1,14)

The "Christing" by which He became our "Christ" occurred at His baptism.

The physical act of being annointed for the role of the Messiah took place at His baptism but, in Truth, the Son was YHWH's 'Chosen One' from before the foundation of the world (1Pet.1:18-20)

Christ is from everlasting to evelasting.

Not true. The Incarnation is temporal not eternal. The Son as YHWH is from Everlasting to Everlasting (Rev.1:8,17; 21:6; 22:13) but incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth the Son has a definite point of origin within Space and Time [as you yourself have just declared](Jn.14:28).

Christ came into Jesus, who became our Christ. One. Our Messiah in the flesh for 33 years.

This is not even true with your own argument let alone mine?! If Jesus of Nazareth only became the Messiah / Christ after he was annointed at His baptism and it was at that point that he became the Messiah /Christ then how could he have been 'Our Messiah in the flesh for 33 years'?!

The Divine Logos did NOT enter into the human creature Jesus of Nazareth for the first time at his baptism (?!) otherwise the Divine Logos would have been entering a regular human creature who was by definition a sinner (Rom.3:9-18)?! The reason why the Messiah is NOT included 'in Adam' is because He is the human incarnation of YHWH and as such is morally perfect (which is why He is referred to as 'the second Adam')

God's manifestation amongst us is a mystery to many.

Including you it would seem?!

But it is given to us to know.

Well, it is given to some to know (1Cor.2:6-16; 2Cor.4:4)

By receiving His resurrected and glorified Holy Spirit.

?! How could the Holy Spirit be resurrected and glorified since the Holy Spirit has never given up His glory in order to incarnate, has never actually incarnated, has never been crucified upon a cross and therefore could not possibly have ever been resurrected or glorified since, as the Eternal Divine Creator, He has never not been glorified?!

He was slain from the "foundation of the world" is directly referring to the New Heavens and New Earth.

?! The Messiah's being slain '...from the foundation of the world' is a Biblical reference to the fact that God had already determined the solution before He set the problem. It has nothing to do with 'the New Heavens and the New Earth' since they have still not yet been revealed to Man by God.

Jesus was slain immediately prior to the foundation of the New world Heavenly Jerusalem, of which Temple we are Born from above in Him, Sons of God, as living stones built upon the foundation of Jesus Himself that we read of in the Gospels.

Nice sentiments but no basis in Scripture whatsoever, just fanciful conjecture.

That is totally what it means Cool huh!

In your opinion...

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

The traditional distinction between the hypostasis and the natures needs to kept in mind. The hypostasis, or person of Jesus didn't change through the incarnation; he added a human nature to his divine nature.

A hypostasis is a consciousness which thinks, perceives, and reacts, in a relatively stable way. A nature is something like the state of being in which a class of things exist. If we were to talk about a plant nature, this would simply mean the category-of-living as a plant.

The term hypostatic union refers to the way in which the single Person of the Son simultaneously exists as both Eternal Divine Creator and temporal human creature. As Divine Creator the Person of the Son is YHWH but NOT Jesus of Nazareth. As a human creature the Person of the Son is Jesus of Nazareth but NOT YHWH. That's because the Divine Creator CANNOT exist as a human creature just as a human creature CANNOT exist as the Divine Creator (which is why the Messiah has to exist as TWO NATURES (the hypostatic union) rather than one nature (just human) just like the rest of us).

Simonline.