Was Jesus a false prophet?

[Charlesinflorida]

Sorry if that seems like a question for entrapment. No, I say that he was not a false prophet, and not a deceiver. I believe he was just exactly what he claimed to be. The Messiah from God.

But we have a little problem. Because the church who claims Him to be Messiah, claim that he put and end to Torah.
In the Deut.13, the Lord is very specific about anyone who leads the people away from obedience to his word (Torah) and not following Him (Not being obedient to Him). Anyone who encourages you to follow another god OR, OR to be disobedient to Gods Commandments, you are not to follow him, except to stone him to death.

CIF

 

[Heinrich]

Jesus did not Lead people away from God.
And Jesus did not put an end to the Torah bible or word of God in any way.
I don't know in which way you understand this or how you heard this, but I think you misunderstood something somebody said maybe?

The point is this:
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fullfil."

Jesus fullfilled all the messianic prophecies.
And he was the one all the old testament rituals and preisthood pointed..
He is our High-Priest unto all righteousness.

I hope this makes sense, or tell us what you still don't understand.
Please don't go and stone somebody

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Jesus did not Lead people away from God.
And Jesus did not put an end to the Torah bible or word of God in any way.
I don't know in which way you understand this or how you heard this, but I think you misunderstood something somebody said maybe?

The point is this:
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fullfil."

Jesus fullfilled all the messianic prophecies.
And he was the one all the old testament rituals and preisthood pointed..
He is our High-Priest unto all righteousness.

I hope this makes sense, or tell us what you still don't understand.
Please don't go and stone somebody

Thank you for the reply.

Those festivals and laws of the Tanahk. Don't they still point to Messiah now, even after he came. Don't they still tell us a great deal about Him?

And Yes many here on this forum have argued adamantly that the Torah of God is obsolete, and no longer in effect.

I have not gathered any stones yet.

CIF

 

[Svt4Him]

Honestly this seems like the same point you keep bringing up over and over again. If you are looking for something specific, or want people to agree with you, maybe go to the Jewish forum. You may think I'm saying this because I don't agree, and that isn't true, I agree with a lot of that, although it is an incomplete picture. I disagree with the attitude of 'the church is wrong and this is why'. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. If you feel you want to explain Jewish culture, fine, but this really serves no purpose but to divide. And honestly, I love understanding Jewish culture.

 

[flyfishing]

Honestly this seems like the same point you keep bringing up over and over again. If you are looking for something specific, or want people to agree with you, maybe go to the Jewish forum. You may think I'm saying this because I don't agree, and that isn't true, I agree with a lot of that, although it is an incomplete picture. I disagree with the attitude of 'the church is wrong and this is why'. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. If you feel you want to explain Jewish culture, fine, but this really serves no purpose but to divide. And honestly, I love understanding Jewish culture.

Amen


Charles please i realize you are a charismatic but one of the undeniable tenats of the charismatic movement is that we are saved by grace through faith.. We dont wish to live under the law. Your posts are inappropriate here if for example i can not take the same debate to the jewish forum...

 

[Jim B]

Hi fly. Where ya been?

\o/

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Amen


Charles please i realize you are a charismatic but one of the undeniable tenats of the charismatic movement is that we are saved by grace through faith.. We dont wish to live under the law. Your posts are inappropriate here if for example i can not take the same debate to the jewish forum...

It isn't a debate. I am just presenting a thought, which sometimes goes on by without a thought.

I am glad that charismatics are saved by grace through faith. Then you share that in common with MJ's and every other person who have ever been saved.

And I was under the impression that you were made quite welcome at the MJ forum and many of your questions patiently answered.
CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Honestly this seems like the same point you keep bringing up over and over again. If you are looking for something specific, or want people to agree with you, maybe go to the Jewish forum. You may think I'm saying this because I don't agree, and that isn't true, I agree with a lot of that, although it is an incomplete picture. I disagree with the attitude of 'the church is wrong and this is why'. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. If you feel you want to explain Jewish culture, fine, but this really serves no purpose but to divide. And honestly, I love understanding Jewish culture.

Sorry, perhaps you have taken me wrong.. I do not mean to divide at all. I look to unite. Because that is what the Gospel was supposed to do. It was to bring the Gentiles into the Covenants of God. Remember that line, "You Gentiles who were once far of separated from the covenants of God and the comonwealth of Israel, He has brought you close."

Do you really think that once you are saved through faith, that you have gone the distance, its all over except waiting for the rapture? Didn't Paul speak to those who had been saved spurring them on to fight the good fight, and to finish the race, and to remain faithful till the coming of the Lord? What do you image Paul was thinking?

What Does Paul mean here in these two verses?

Ro 1:[5] Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

What is the obedience that comes from faith? Obedient to what?

RO 15:17 Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. [18] I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done-

How do the Gentiles Obey God? What has God given them to obey?

CIF

 

[IKTCA]

How do the Gentiles Obey God? What has God given them to obey?

Suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

God gave us his only Son Jesus. He commanded us to obey his Son. And his Son's commandments are recorded in the 4 gospels. I am doing my best to obey as many commandments as I can, as sincerely as I can, not with fear but with love and submission.

O Charles,
How I hope your zeal for Torah becomes a zeal for Christ! Do you not know that is the will of the Father? Paul had a zeal for Torah, just like you. Like Paul, you have the right heart. Only if you fall to the ground, you will see the blinding glory of the Son. Then you will become a great servant for Christ, exceeding all of us in zeal and devotion. You will teach us the truth. Am I dreaming? No, I am not a dreamer. I am prayer. And the Father hears prayers.
Rupert

 

[flyfishing]

It isn't a debate. I am just presenting a thought, which sometimes goes on by without a thought.

I am glad that charismatics are saved by grace through faith. Then you share that in common with MJ's and every other person who have ever been saved.

And I was under the impression that you were made quite welcome at the MJ forum and many of your questions patiently answered.
CIF

Charles i dont know about that.. I was rudely treated there yesterday and asked the mod to lock down the thread after someone defended me. It just disappeared.. I read clearly where the rules where non messianics are not allowed to debate. I guess i am confused about why you need to keep bringing this arguement to this forum..

 

[flyfishing]

Sorry, perhaps you have taken me wrong.. I do not mean to divide at all. I look to unite. Because that is what the Gospel was supposed to do. It was to bring the Gentiles into the Covenants of God. Remember that line, "You Gentiles who were once far of separated from the covenants of God and the comonwealth of Israel, He has brought you close."

Do you really think that once you are saved through faith, that you have gone the distance, its all over except waiting for the rapture? Didn't Paul speak to those who had been saved spurring them on to fight the good fight, and to finish the race, and to remain faithful till the coming of the Lord? What do you image Paul was thinking?

What Does Paul mean here in these two verses?

Ro 1:[5] Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

What is the obedience that comes from faith? Obedient to what?

RO 15:17 Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God. [18] I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done-

How do the Gentiles Obey God? What has God given them to obey?

CIF

Charles do you miss the whole message of yeshua??

What have we to obey?? We are under a higher judgement than the torah. Because of grace there is greater accountability for the inward sanctification work that the HOLY SPIRIT can do if we cooperate. Yeshua said it is out of the heart,,,, the torah speaks to the outward man.. Yeshua wants mens hearts.. Not outward conformance to a code of conduct. So i as a nt believer am required to live the moral code but a step higher in the inward motives where JESUS truly desires to reign...

 

[Charlesinflorida]

God gave us his only Son Jesus. He commanded us to obey his Son. And his Son's commandments are recorded in the 4 gospels. I am doing my best to obey as many commandments as I can, as sincerely as I can, not with fear but with love and submission.

O Charles,
How I hope your zeal for Torah becomes a zeal for Christ! Do you not know that is the will of the Father? Paul had a zeal for Torah, just like you. Like Paul, you have the right heart. Only if you fall to the ground, you will see the blinding glory of the Son. Then you will become a great servant for Christ, exceeding all of us in zeal and devotion. You will teach us the truth. Am I dreaming? No, I am not a dreamer. I am prayer. And the Father hears prayers.
Rupert

Rupert,

I thank you for your prayers very much. I need all I can get.

I can only tell you with all my heart that my love for Yeshua is every bit as overwhelming as your own. Every day I must face the weakness in me and go on my knees before our God and confess my failure to uphold his high goals and standards he has set for us.

I approach the father not on my own merit, but by the covenant provided through the life of Yeshua. He (Yeshua) made me a son, completing a promise made long ago to call out a people from the Gentiles to be his own as part of Israel, the name he has given to his family. Now because of Yeshua, I am fully a member of that family and called to live to the same code of conduct given to all his children. My zeal is to be obedient to that code of conduct. The way a child shows love, respect, honor, devotion to their parents is through praise, and obedience.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles i dont know about that.. I was rudely treated there yesterday and asked the mod to lock down the thread after someone defended me. It just disappeared.. I read clearly where the rules where non messianics are not allowed to debate. I guess i am confused about why you need to keep bringing this arguement to this forum..

Sorry to learn of you encounter. I was not aware of this. I saw one thread that seemed to be cut up but was not sure what had taken place during my abscence. Most of our other conversation there semed to go smoothly, yes?

There is some sort of blanket rule against one debating anywhere but your own denomination area. In this forum I have been PM'd by moderators,had my posts edited or deleted ect. It is not a good feeling. Sorry for any bad treatment you received there.

What I am bringing to this forum is not meant to be an aguement or the sake of arguing. It is food for thought. There are blaring inconsistencies in what people believe and what the scriptures say. This is true in the MJ area as well. I stand and challenge any of these that I find, especially if they are an afront to the Gospel, and cancel the redeptive work of messiah and the unity that we should have in him. There is a great deal more I have to tell you, but I can not unless you have been prepared to hear it.

CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles do you miss the whole message of yeshua??

What have we to obey?? We are under a higher judgement than the torah. Because of grace there is greater accountability for the inward sanctification work that the HOLY SPIRIT can do if we cooperate. Yeshua said it is out of the heart,,,, the torah speaks to the outward man.. Yeshua wants mens hearts.. Not outward conformance to a code of conduct. So i as a nt believer am required to live the moral code but a step higher in the inward motives where JESUS truly desires to reign...

No, I haven't missed the message at all. I am like that write in the N.T. who says, I am anxious to go beytond those basic things but you are not ready.

You are absolutely correct in what you say, that Yeshua made the law something deeper and addressing th heart. You are absolutely wrong, when you say that the Torah was outward. It was second Temple Judaism that had taken up that outward obedeince. It was part of an apostasy, and spiritual decline of the nation that caused that. But it was not meant to be. From the giving of Torah, it was always stated,"These laws are not far from you that you can not do them, for they are near, in your own hearts."

Being obedeint to Yeshua, throuh submitting to the work of the spirit will not make you disobey or disbelieve the commandments. Because the law is written on your heart, and the spirit brings you to believe them and to agree with God. So if you are following the spirit, (rather than say church doctrine or traditions) you will keep the law, all of it. If you are not doing the things contained in the law, then there is a problem. And if you believe that Yeshua in anyway voided the law, or set it aside, or replace it, you have made Yeshua a false prophet. He upheld he law and was obedeint to it himself in every way.

The only way a man can FOLLOW god, worship him is through aithfulness and praise. Faithfulness requires action, obedeince. This is why Paul never once tells anyone including Gentiles not to do the things required in the law.

One does not have to become a Jew or loose their salvation to obey the law. All are saved through faith, all are sanctified by obedience to God.

CIF

 

[Svt4Him]

Again you are painting an incomplete picture. I will not obey the law because you tell me to, nor will my sin be held against me if I disobey the law. My sins are blown away, they've gone into remission. The law is the school master that leads us to Christ, but it has no power to change. The law is good, it was written by the hand of God. But we are under a new covenant. This doesn't do away with the old, I'm aware of that, in the same way the law of gravity isn't done away with by the law of aerodynamics, but it does supersede it. Where my sin abounds, grace that much more abounds, for those who are in Christ.

But these posts remind me of the story of the son who didn't run away, and was mad at his father because the son who left was welcomed back with joy.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Again you are painting an incomplete picture. I will not obey the law because you tell me to, nor will my sin be held against me if I disobey the law. My sins are blown away, they've gone into remission. The law is the school master that leads us to Christ, but it has no power to change. The law is good, it was written by the hand of God. But we are under a new covenant. This doesn't do away with the old, I'm aware of that, in the same way the law of gravity isn't done away with by the law of aerodynamics, but it does supersede it. Where my sin abounds, grace that much more abounds, for those who are in Christ.

But these posts remind me of the story of the son who didn't run away, and was mad at his father because the son who left was welcomed back with joy.

You have forgivenes for sins. I like your term, "in remission", because sin is like a desease; One which is common to man. The purpose of the law is to lead us to Messiah. True enough. But the Law is dynamic. It serves other purposes. As Diddy has said in another thread, "overpowering sin with faith", and the process he uses is meditating upon Gods word. He quotes Psalm 119 in several places to make his case. But he doesn't seem to know what David was talking about. Gods word to David is Torah, for that is all there was. Gods word = Torah= the law. And if you read it in Hebrew it says exactly that, Torah. So even after we are saved through faith, the law aids us in knowing how to live as Gods children.

In still another thread, JimB quotes Leviticus, "Obey my Laws and ordinances by the pursuit of them you will live ". As I pointed out to Jim in the Hebrew the meaning is this, "by living acording to my law, you will have peaceful and meaningful lives in this land and I will extend you days." Keeping the Law is Gods way of blessing us, though you have not realized it yet. If all men would live a spirit filled life, and keep the law, the Kingdom of God will break forth upon the earth. Everything we need is there.

The idea that one can earn their salvation throuh keeping the law, is a 2nd temple herodian era mistake. It never appears in Torah and was not a doctrine beore the Herodians.

CIF

 

[Svt4Him]

One can earn their salvation through keeping the law though, but that's a different topic.

 

[Heinrich]

huh?
I would like to hear your argument for this different topic

Charles I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.. but I think some of the following things might shed light, maybe?
1. a proper understanding of the relationship between the old and new testaments
2. knowledge of the messainic prophecies, especially those concerning the Jews reaction to the christ.

I can't really help you, sorry.

Maybe look at how Davids relationship with God worked, he did some pretty amazing stuff. Like once eating of the bread which was only for the priests. Davids relationship to God was never on a Law bases.

Then maybe go look at Jesus's life. He was never sin conscious. He allowed a prostitute to anoint him with oil she got for sleeping around with men.
It's very easy to miss the balance of where the Law fits in.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

huh?
I would like to hear your argument for this different topic

Charles I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.. but I think some of the following things might shed light, maybe?
1. a proper understanding of the relationship between the old and new testaments
2. knowledge of the messainic prophecies, especially those concerning the Jews reaction to the christ.

I can't really help you, sorry.

Maybe look at how Davids relationship with God worked, he did some pretty amazing stuff. Like once eating of the bread which was only for the priests. Davids relationship to God was never on a Law bases.

Then maybe go look at Jesus's life. He was never sin conscious. He allowed a prostitute to anoint him with oil she got for sleeping around with men.
It's very easy to miss the balance of where the Law fits in.

Yes it is difficult to see where it fits. But that is no reason to dismiss it totally out of hat, when Yeshua and Paul, John and james, all tell us that we are to be obedient to the law. You see in Messianic faith, we see the Torah as instructions for holy living, and not a salvation process. It how to live as Gods children.

Thanks for the tips,
CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

One can earn their salvation through keeping the law though, but that's a different topic.

You have introduced a topic that is unfounded in either Old or New Testament.

Salvation has always been the free gift of God to those who repent and have faith. Even the sacrifices required repentence and trust in Gods forgiveness.

CIF